[Mbodell]

 lucky555, on 2015-June-03, 00:18, said:

Hi
If you want to play a fancy convention for this , then use Kokish
you bid 2H( relay) , your partner bids 2S (must), you bid 2nt (showing 25+ and balanced hand).
This way, you showed 25+ and you are still at the 2nt level which allows you to investigate major fit (puppet), etc

In case it wasn't clear, given the forum, this is a common but minority treatment where after a 2♣ strong artificial and forcing bid and a 2♦ response (that can have a number of meanings depending on the pair including: Game forcing (3+); waiting (nearly automatic on anything); 1st negative (<8); etc.), then if opener makes a 2♥ bid it shows one of 2 types of hands:

1. A hand with primary hearts (possibly with a second suit as well, possibly single suiter)
2. A balanced hand even stronger than the 2♣-2♦-2nt sequence.

Responder in response to this 2♥ relay must bid 2♠, which is an artificial bid that allows the opener to describe which hand type they had.

With the strong balanced they bid 2nt (for me, at least 24+ (since 20-21 opens 2nt and 22-23 bids 2♣ then 2nt) but others might be 25+). Note when you get to these sort of point counts, it is very, very likely to be the minimum point value of any range just due to frequency of hands.

With the primary hearts, instead of the balanced hand, the opener instead makes a bid on the 3 level over the forced 2♠ response to show primary hearts and anything else about their hand (and again people play different things at the 3 level - easiest is just everything is natural, but there are very common switch treatments here if you ever get in more depth here).

I think this is a pretty good treatment overall, but it mostly doesn't matter what you do on really strong hands - especially at matchpoints - because they come up so infrequently. The most important thing is to be on the same page as partner.

[helene_t]

I don't think you can bid on after partner's 3nt. He could have Txxx Txxx x Txxx. You have already shown a gf with long diamonds and you don't have more than that. So respect partner's decision.

But it is better to rebid 3nt instead of 3d. It makes it a lot easier for partner to evaluate his hand.

[diana_eva]

 ArtK78, on 2015-June-02, 07:33, said:

No one said that the 2♦ reply was negative. That is why I left open the possibility that partner could have 8 or more HCP for his 2♦ response in my previous post.

Just want to emphasize this since several posters are basing their responses on the assumption that 2♦ was negative. 2♦ response is not necessarily negative. Unless you specifically agree with partner that 2♦ is negative, I would say you should not assume it promises nothing.

On this particular hand, as the auction went, I'm not convinced there's much else you can do over partner's 3NT. While 2D wont mean a bust hand by default, it could still be a bust hand so you're kinda trapped.

[Zelandakh]

 lucky555, on 2015-June-03, 00:18, said:

If you want to play a fancy convention for this , then use Kokish

It is indeed an excellent convention but I suspect the other posters, like me, have avoided mentioning it due to this being the N/B forum. It was certainly one of the options I had in mind with the "or something else" comment in post #8 but not something I would want to recommend to a beginner.

[masse24]

 PhilG007, on 2015-June-02, 23:50, said:

After his negative 2♦response . . .

Um, nope. Do not assume 2♦ is negative.

[billw55]

 PhilG007, on 2015-June-02, 23:50, said:

After his negative 2♦response,I don't think partner will be even remotely interested in a slam(if he was,he would
have made a positive response on the previous round ) so bidding 4NT will achieve nothing except to make an already
potentially difficult contract even more challenging to fulfil.

The OP did not state that 2♦ was agreed as negative, or that he took it as such. That is an assumption on your part. In fact many partnerships use 2♦ as game forcing.

[Cyberyeti]

Is 2♦ negative taught as default to most beginners in the US ? It is here.

I deliberately didn't mention Kokish (which I play) due to being in the N/B.

[1eyedjack]

2D may or may not have promised a negative, but in an N/B context I would expect it to contain all negative possibilities even if it contains some positives.
Furthermore, while 2D might not at the time promise a negative, I think his follow-up of 3N does.

[blackshoe]

 diana_eva, on 2015-June-03, 02:16, said:

Just want to emphasize this since several posters are basing their responses on the assumption that 2♦ was negative. 2♦ response is not necessarily negative. Unless you specifically agree with partner that 2♦ is negative, I would say you should not assume it promises nothing.

On this particular hand, as the auction went, I'm not convinced there's much else you can do over partner's 3NT. While 2D wont mean a bust hand by default, it could still be a bust hand so you're kinda trapped.

I know pairs who have agreed 2♦ is negative. When asked what "negative" means in this context, they have no clue.

[jmcilkley]

 goingoren, on 2015-June-01, 12:33, said:

♠ A64
♥ AQJ
♦ AQJ96
♣ AK



They all pass to me (obviously, I got all the points), and the uncontested bidding goes
me 2c
partner 2d
me 3d
partner 3NT.

Should I have bid 2nt myself over 2d? or how else should I have bid this hand?

Assuming 2c is your only strong bid then this ideal for the Kikish relay - 2c-2d-2h! which shows either strong with hearts or 25+ balanced. Partner relays 2s to ask which. Then 2nt shows a balanced 25+ while any other bid shows strong with hearts.
After the 2nt you can then use 5 card Stayman or transfers to find the best contract.

Bidding 3d is probably not a good choice. Strong balanced hands are usually much better in NT

For me, the 2d reply to 2c is a negative (you need to agree with partner what constitutes a positive hand opposite a 2c opener). With a positive hand responder can bid a 5+ card suit or else show a positive, balanced hand. Bidding 2nt to show this is not a great idea since opener cannot then bid 2nt (and allow you to use Stayman to find a 4-4 fit. It is a good idea to swithch the meanings of 2nt and 2h so that 2h response can show a positive hand but with no 5+ card suit to bid while 2nt now shows a positive hand with 5+ hearts.

[PhilG007]

 ArtK78, on 2015-June-02, 07:33, said:

No one said that the 2♦ reply was negative. That is why I left open the possibility that partner could have 8 or more HCP for his 2♦ response in my previous post.

Since the 2♦response wasn't alerted or if no prior agreement was reached,I would be entitled to
think it was negative.

[Antrax]

 PhilG007, on 2015-June-02, 23:50, said:

After his negative 2♦response,I don't think partner will be even remotely interested in a slam(if he was,he would
have made a positive response on the previous round )

This is incorrect. You sometimes want to keep the bidding low because 2♣ already ate a lot of space.
In my partnership we only bid major-suit positives (8+ HCP, good 5+ card suits), the minor and NT positives just take up too much room so we let opener tell us what they have first.

[diana_eva]

 Cyberyeti, on 2015-June-03, 09:28, said:

Is 2♦ negative taught as default to most beginners in the US ? It is here.

...

I was under the impression that while it is possible to agree to play 2D negative, most people would play it either as "waiting" or as positive and GF. I went through BBO's stock convention cards to see what the treatments proposed there are. Looks like 2D is negative in Acol, but not in SAYC and variations, nor in Italian Standard. SEF, Polish club and Precision don't play 2C as a strong opener, so I skipped those but here's what the other CCs show as "default":


Simple Modern Acol:
2C strong, artif, GF (except 2C-2D-2NT)

GIB CC:
2C strong, 22+ HCP or 9+ tricks
2D waiting, denies good suit

BBO Advanced 1.3
2C strong, 2D waiting - artificial, game force

ACBL SAYC
2C strong, 2D waiting, denies good suit

BBO Advanced (2/1=Game Force)
2♣=strong: 2♦=waiting, 2♥=negative, 2NT=♥ positive

SAYC - Standard American Yellow Card
2♣=strong: 2♦=waiting

SAYC - BBO Standard - SAYC based
2C strong, 2D artificial, forcing, waiting, any strength

Standard English Acol
2C strong, 2D artificial, forcing, negative

Goren KISS
2C strong, 2D artificial, forcing, negative or waiting

BBO ITA
2C strong, 2D artificial relay, waiting, not necessarily negative

[billw55]

 PhilG007, on 2015-June-04, 00:43, said:

Since the 2♦response wasn't alerted or if no prior agreement was reached,I would be entitled to
think it was negative.

You choice of course. But you run a risk of being wrong. Methods following a forcing opening vary widely, hence assumptions are risky.

In a pickup partnership with no agreement, I would take 2♦ as nothing more than a relay, containing no other information at all.