[bd71]

---

Grand National Teams B - Round of 16

Should either do more? Agreements don't cover the possibility of differentiating strength of 26+ hands.

They didn't lead clubs and J♦ dropped singleton, so 4♠+3.

Corresponding pair at the other table didn't have a way to cover this hand either as they were in 3N+4. So no loss, but lots of IMPs left on the table.

[hrothgar]

bd71, on 2013-August-05, 13:05, said:

---

Grand National Teams B - Round of 16

Should either do more? Agreements don't cover the possibility of differentiating strength of 26+ hands.

They didn't lead clubs and J♦ dropped singleton, so 4♠+3.

Corresponding pair at the other table didn't have a way to cover this hand either as they were in 3N+4. So no loss, but lots of IMPs left on the table.

The problem isn't that you can't show a 29 pointer.
The problem appears to be that the strong club opener can't/didn't initiate a slam try after 4♥

[Cyberyeti]

We play:

2N=good 19-21
2♣-2♦-2N = 22-23
2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠-2N = 24-25
2♣-2♦-3N = 26-27
2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠-3N = 28-29

so we would bid 6♠ in some comfort probably 2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠-3N-4♥-4♠-5♠-6♠

[the_clown]

North knows that South has 6 spades, so I think its pretty obvious to bid on. Opposite xxxxxx xx xxx xx slam is on spades 2-2. So anytime partner accepts we will play a good slam and i cant see how the 5 level can be too much.

I personally put the 22-23 NT in multi so the auction would go something like:
2♣-2♥ //negative
2N-4♦ // 24+ balanced unlimited // texas
5♠-6♠

IMHO its not worth it to play split ranges, especially when you have 2♥ negative available.
When opener has around 26+ he just makes another try opposite a positive response.

Playing a strong club we will bid:

1♣-1♦
1N-2♦ // either 5♦4M or 24+ bal forcing 1.
2N-4♦
5♠-6♠

[Free]

We don't care to distinguish anything above 24HCP immediately, we use 2♣-2♦(positive)-2♥(Kokish)-2♠(obligated)-2NT to show a GF balanced hand with 24+HCP. Because of this, we still have our entire 2NT structure available to find a fit (a huge advantage imo), but opener needs to "zoom" with considerable extras when the contract might end prematurely (which isn't always a thing of beauty). Some examples:
- after ...-2NT-3NT (signoff) opener needs to show his extras
- after ...-2NT-4♥ (transfer) opener can't just accept the transfer
- after ...-2NT-3♣ (puppet stayman) opener can't just bid 3NT without a 4 or 5 card M
- ...

[Stephen Tu]

I was the other team. Unfortunately we had a sequence to show 25-27 (and 27 even came up the previous session!) but apparently had a difference of opinion on the standard way to show 28+.

We decided the auction was supposed to go
2c-2d-2h-2s-2nt-4h-5c(28+, 4 keycards)-6s
while with 25-27 opener just accepts the texas transfer.

I don't think it's right to use the Kokish relay just to get more narrow and additional NT ranges. It's important to be able to show suits at the non-game level and find fits, as the fit can provide quite a few extra tricks if established. Just don't bid or pass the lowest game with 28+ as opener.

[bd71]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-August-05, 13:44, said:

I was the other team. Unfortunately we had a sequence to show 25-27 (and 27 even came up the previous session!) but apparently had a difference of opinion on the standard way to show 28+.

We decided the auction was supposed to go
2c-2d-2h-2s-2nt-4h-5c(28+, 4 keycards)-6s
while with 25-27 opener just accepts the texas transfer.

I don't think it's right to use the Kokish relay just to get more narrow and additional NT ranges. It's important to be able to show suits at the non-game level and find fits, as the fit can provide quite a few extra tricks if established. Just don't bid or pass the lowest game with 28+ as opener.

I have to admit we hadn't put a lot of thought into these situations, but you've convinced me.

On the side...Stephen, I apologize for not introducing myself, as I've enjoyed your thoughts on the forums and knew you were at the other table. But that 3rd quarter stung (Note for all: we were down 100 or so and withdrew) and I wasn't thinking of social graces.

[Stephen Tu]

bd71, on 2013-August-05, 14:09, said:

On the side...Stephen, I apologize for not introducing myself, as I've enjoyed your thoughts on the forums and knew you were at the other table. But that 3rd quarter stung (Note for all: we were down 100 or so and withdrew) and I wasn't thinking of social graces.

No problem, I've been on the other end of those situations, it can be demoralizing. I expect to be in a similar position tomorrow. Good luck the rest of the tournament. If you want to say hi come kibbitz me being killed by Monaco. We decided beforehand we aren't withdrawing regardless so you can still see us even if we are down 150 in the 4th.

[bd71]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-August-05, 14:15, said:

No problem, I've been on the other end of those situations, it can be demoralizing. I expect to be in a similar position tomorrow. Good luck the rest of the tournament. If you want to say hi come kibbitz me being killed by Monaco. We decided beforehand we aren't withdrawing regardless so you can still see us even if we are down 150 in the 4th.

Would love to take you up on that, but am back home and at work now. Best of luck...stranger things have happened.

[Fluffy]

2♣-2♦
2NT = 23+ forcing
.....3♥ = transfer
4NT = blackwood
.......5♦ = none
5♥= ♠Q ask
.........5NT = I have it
6♠.


As I've been saying on the I/A forum many times lately, you don't need to show 29 balanced nor 26, you need to count your tricks when partner shows 5 card and bid accordingly. 29 balanced means NOTHING to partner, there is no way partner will have more info than you when you are that strong.

EDIT: for purists, bidding 3♠ before bidding 4NT next round would be better.

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2013-August-05, 15:20, said:

2♣-2♦
2NT = 23+ forcing
.....3♥ = transfer
4NT = blackwood
.......5♦ = none
5♥= ♠Q ask
.........5NT = I have it
6♠.


As I've been saying on the I/A forum many times lately, you don't need to show 29 balanced nor 26, you need to count your tricks when partner shows 5 card and bid accordingly. 29 balanced means NOTHING to partner, there is no way partner will have more info than you when you are that strong.

EDIT: for purists, bidding 3♠ before bidding 4NT next round would be better.

Cause I really want to be in 5♠ rather than 4 opposite a Yarborough with 5 spades.

[cloa513]

bd71, on 2013-August-05, 13:05, said:

---

Grand National Teams B - Round of 16

Should either do more? Agreements don't cover the possibility of differentiating strength of 26+ hands.

They didn't lead clubs and J♦ dropped singleton, so 4♠+3.

Corresponding pair at the other table didn't have a way to cover this hand either as they were in 3N+4. So no loss, but lots of IMPs left on the table.

At such a high level, the actual HCP don't matter so much- give North ♠AKQ, ♥ AKQ, ♣KQxx ♦KQ x and South a Yarborough or near Y hand with six spades and pushing on the 5 level doesn't look so safe- its just that your given hand is worth more than even 29 HCP and together its worth far more than 31.

[mike777]

KISS
nothing fancy:

2nt=20-21
2c=2h(deny A or K, unlimited tiny points)
2nt=22-24
3nt=25-27
4nt=28-30

so here:
2c=2h
4nt=6h(s)
6s=p

Yes I note I may be off the AK of trumps or 2 aces.
yes 4nt and even 3nt may be down across nothing.

[Fluffy]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-August-05, 15:53, said:

Cause I really want to be in 5♠ rather than 4 opposite a Yarborough with 5 spades.

You don't care that much, you are making most of the time even opposite a complete yarborough, and chances of partner to have 0 of the 11 missing HCP are really low. I would bid to the 5 level with less than this 29 count.

But you are not getting the point, partner has no business taking captaincy here, he will never know that you have ♣AKQxx instead of ♣AKQ, and even if you could show 5 card suits, he can't distinghish between ♣AJ9xx and ♣AKQ10x which is about 2 trick difference, and no, a random QJ won't be 2 tricks somewhere else

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2013-August-05, 19:15, said:

You don't care that much, you are making most of the time even opposite a complete yarborough, and chances of partner to have 0 of the 11 missing HCP are really low. I would bid to the 5 level with less than this 29 count.

But you are not getting the point, partner has no business taking captaincy here, he will never know that you have ♣AKQxx instead of ♣AKQ, and even if you could show 5 card suits, he can't distinghish between ♣AJ9xx and ♣AKQ10x which is about 2 trick difference, and no, a random QJ won't be 2 tricks somewhere else

I'm entirely getting the point, BUT, this is if there can be such a thing a completely nondescript 29 count with no great source of tricks of its own, hence I'm happy to describe it. If I had ♠AKx and ♣AKQxx I would be breaking the transfer to 5♣ to show this.

[Zelandakh]

I have a NT ladder that covers this:

(11)12-14 = 1NT
15-17 = 1♣ - 1♦; 1NT
18-20 = 1♣ - 1♦; 1♥ - 1♠; 1NT
21-22 = 1♣ - 1♦; 2NT
23-24 = 1♣ - 1♦; 1♥ - 1♠; 2NT
25-26 = 1♣ - 1♦; 3♣ (4-5 hearts) or 3♦ = 4-5 spades) or 3♥ = no major
27-28 = 1♣ - 1♦; 1♥ - 1♠; 3♣ (4-5 hearts) or 3♦ (4-5 spades) or 3♥ (no major)
29-30 = 1♣ - 1♦; 3NT
31-32 = 1♣ - 1♦; 1♥ - 1♠; 3NT

You can do it within Kokish or Benji too if you want to:
(Kokish)
20-21 = 2NT
22-23 = 2♣ - 2♦; 2NT
24-25 = 2♣ - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠; 2NT
26-27 = 2♣ - 2♦; 3NT
28-29 = 2♣ - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠; 3NT

or
(Benji)
20-21 = 2NT
22-23 = 2♣ - 2♦; 2NT
24-25 = 2♦ - 2♥; 2NT
26-27 = 2♣ - 2♦; 3NT
28-29 = 2♦ - 2♥; 3NT

although most do something else here judging that saving a level of bidding is worth more than showing a more precise point count.

[the hog]

Having a ladder that covers this is a waste of time. These hands are too rare. What is the error here is that you need to make 2C 2D 2H 2S 2NT a 100% gf. The 3NT bid robbed you of room to explore.
After a 3H trf in my sequence it is trivial to find 6.

[WellSpyder]

While I don't disagree with many of the points people have made about improving the system, I think it should have been possible to find the slam even with the system in use at the table and uncertainty over cue-bidding style. If North simply bids 5♠ over the 4♥ transfer rather than just 4♠, to show extra values and interest in a slam, then South should have no difficulty accepting.

[blackshoe]

Romex would actually downgrade this hand with "only" ten controls to 28 points. The bidding would go:

2♦-2♥: balanced w/ either 21-22 HCP and 7 controls or 27-28 and 10 controls or unbalanced GF w/ primary diamonds; 0-9 HCP, no slam interest opposite 21-22 balanced.
3NT-4♥: balanced 27-28, 10 controls; transfer to spades
4♠-6♠: shows 3+ spades; fin.

[mcphee]

I do not believe the partnership should face a problem especially when rebidding 2NT after the kokish relay is 25 + hcp, rather than using the 3NT rebid to show 28-30 range. That handcuffs responder and the partnership a bit too much I think. Once N knows the S hand holds 6S you can almost count 12 tricks if trumps split, or partner holds as little as the Q of trumps, 6 should have a shot. Surely the N hand can not expect partner with what can be close to a yarb to bid over 4S, and should use key card.

I did not vote, but feel N should offer more help.

If methods include not taking the transfer into a major after 2NT rebids (after 2C openings and relays)these sort of hands become much easier to manage.