[amre_man]

My P and I play 1430.

I am the dealer and pass. LHO opens 1♥, X, P, 2♣, P, 3♦, P, 3♠, P, 4NT....

My P's overcall of my forced response shows me her points, the jump was not necessary.

I showed her my 4 card S suit hoping for a signoff in 3NT; she jumps to 4NT.

My p allowed her pretty hand to overcome her common sense and bid too aggressively.

Ignoring the poor bidding sequence, how is my p supposed to ask for aces? Do I assume RKC in S? Should I assume no agreement on suit and respond normal Blackwood? We'd have been +1 if I'd just pass 4NT.

She hoped for the latter but got the former. 6D down 2.


Thanks

[helene_t]

The jump is necessary to show a very strong hand. 2d would have had an upper limit of about 21 points.
I would not be 100% sure but take 4nt as rkc for spades.

[akwoo]

I think the jump to 3♦ here should unilaterally set trump. This would mean your 3♠ bid should show a control and 4N should be RKC in diamonds.

[billw55]

3♦ is easily interpreted as showing a strong one suited hand (diamonds). Some people play 2♦ as not showing extra strength in this situation. Perhaps your partner just wanted to be sure you understood.

Also, double followed by cuebid of opponents suit (here, 2♥) is sometimes used to show a very strong hand.

If you had 4 spades and a weak hand, perhaps you should consider bidding 1♠ over your partner's double.

4NT does sound like blackwood. Personally, I would interpret 3♦ as setting the trump suit, so I would respond with that assumption. However, this has become an unclear situation, where it is easy to misunderstand each other. Or, perhaps partner has simply overbid.

Anyway, none of this can really be evaluated because you did not bother to present either your partner's hand or your own. It sounds like you just came here to complain. Wise posters here often say that the first person to point blame, is usually the one at fault. I agree. I will reconsider if you post the hands.

[fromageGB]

If 4NT is your only ace asking bid, it is asking in diamonds. Partner would not jump in diamonds with a spade suit. Very clear.

[mycroft]

A magic phrase is "Equal level conversion". If you and partner have never heard of it, then X-then-2♦ is "I was concerned you would pass a 2♦ overcall, I have a moose" and X-then-3♦ should probably be "Not only do I have a moose, we're playing in diamonds, no matter what your support is, unless *I* say otherwise later." Playable opposite a void, "likely solid, maybe a finesse" opposite a singleton.

At that point, 4NT is KC♦ (to find the K or Q she's missing for the grand).

If you have heard of ELC, then I'll defer to others to explain what 3♦ is and what to do. But I agree with others above, on no account did she bid like this looking for keycards in spades - I can see 4NT being straight-Ace, or I can see it being KC for diamonds, and that's it.

I also know that my opinion is a minority in my area short of the "real A" players. I can't say what I think about that without being censored.

[PhilKing]

4NT does not exist on this auction unless 3♦ was forcing (it shouldn't be).

[gszes]

 amre_man, on 2014-September-30, 09:08, said:

My P and I play 1430.

I am the dealer and pass. LHO opens 1♥, X, P, 2♣, P, 3♦, P, 3♠, P, 4NT....

My P's overcall of my forced response shows me her points, the jump was not necessary.

I showed her my 4 card S suit hoping for a signoff in 3NT; she jumps to 4NT.

My p allowed her pretty hand to overcome her common sense and bid too aggressively.

Ignoring the poor bidding sequence, how is my p supposed to ask for aces? Do I assume RKC in S? Should I assume no agreement on suit and respond normal Blackwood? We'd have been +1 if I'd just pass 4NT.

She hoped for the latter but got the former. 6D down 2.


Thanks

you did include an auction but the rest of the information and commentary are
useless to those of us trying to provide answers to questions. We do not care
who was at fault we see the bids and judge accordingly. Providing a pair of
hands and pertinent system info (do you play ELC for ex) would help us provide
a system specific answer. Using ELC 3d is not forcing but otherwise it should be
forcing to at least 4m if my game.

[Lovera]

It seems, bidding ♣ and ♠, that you have such as ♠ Kxxx ♥ xx ♦ xx ♣ AJxxx and your partner (if her bidding is correct) ♠ Axx ♥ KQx ♦ AKQxxx ♣ x that allow 5NT and your partner to try RKCB(d)..

[kgr]

 amre_man, on 2014-September-30, 09:08, said:

My P and I play 1430.

I am the dealer and pass. LHO opens 1♥, X, P, 2♣, P, 3♦, P, 3♠, P, 4NT....

My P's overcall of my forced response shows me her points, the jump was not necessary.

I showed her my 4 card S suit hoping for a signoff in 3NT; she jumps to 4NT.

I think this is easier to read:

---

- The jump to 3♦ shows for me a good hand with 8 tricks. It is NF after the 2♣ bid
- 4c♠ by advancer is unlikely after the weak 2♣. 3♠ show a good hand for the earlier 2♣ bid and a ♠-stop.

 PhilKing, on 2014-October-01, 18:45, said:

4NT does not exist on this auction unless 3♦ was forcing (it shouldn't be).

Maybe somethine like?:

---

Hoping for ♣A

 Lovera, on 2014-November-01, 02:50, said:

It seems, bidding ♣ and ♠, that you have such as ♠ Kxxx ♥ xx ♦ xx ♣ AJxxx and your partner (if her bidding is correct) ♠ Axx ♥ KQx ♦ AKQxxx ♣ x that allow 5NT and your partner to try RKCB(d)..

I think that a 4c♠ for advancer is unlikely after the non-forcing 2♣.
IMO, With your example hand advancer should give a (weak) invite with 4c♠.
Therefor 3♠ in the given bidding is not minimal for the earlier 2♣ bid and rather showing a stop for 3NT. And 4NT is RKC for ♦

[Lovera]

 kgr, on 2014-November-01, 03:36, said:

I think this is easier to read:

---

- The jump to 3♦ shows for me a good hand with 8 tricks. It is NF after the 2♣ bid
- 4c♠ by advancer is unlikely after the weak 2♣. 3♠ show a good hand for the earlier 2♣ bid and a ♠-stop.


Maybe somethine like?:

---

Hoping for ♣A


I think that a 4c♠ for advancer is unlikely after the non-forcing 2♣.
IMO, With your example hand advancer should give a (weak) invite with 4c♠.
Therefor 3♠ in the given bidding is not minimal for the earlier 2♣ bid and rather showing a stop for 3NT. And 4NT is RKC for ♦

Yes, i agree: i' ve tried to combine a minimal (8-9points) with strong of partner but with a minimal is correct don't bid a new suit (but if bidding is not exact[=poor bidding..] could be that is it so or be Q/J or xxxx in spade and any point aside..)

[Vampyr]

 akwoo, on 2014-September-30, 13:11, said:

I think the jump to 3♦ here should unilaterally set trump. This would mean your 3♠ bid should show a control and 4N should be RKC in diamonds.

4♦ RKC better, since it allows signing off in 4NT.

 mycroft, on 2014-October-01, 16:39, said:

A magic phrase is "Equal level conversion". If you and partner have never heard of it, then X-then-2♦ is "I was concerned you would pass a 2♦ overcall, I have a moose"

I was not aware that having heard of ELC means you play it.

[Lovera]

To be ultheriorly clear : South with 8(-10) points and a 5-4 sh. must bid its second suit (here spade) enter level 2 but not 3, North with its (forcing) jump sure 9 tricks and needs only a trick for manche whilest South bidding then spade ask for control of heart. And than why North bids 4NT? Probably hopes more of 8 points for diamond slam, or go hunting or simply overbidding.