[shevek]

---

Some bid this but they might have stabbed.
As West, I thought partner might have 3-4-2-4 say, so hoped that 4♠ would encourage partner to show 3rd round control.
Even so, partner could have 2-3-5-3 but that's specific.
Maybe 4♠ - 5♠ - 6♣ choice, catering for 2-3-4-4 or similar.

[gwnn]

Help-suit slam tries could help here. When you know nothing about each other's shape except that you have a fit, the first suit bid should be natural. Then you can have (...) 2H-3H; 4C-5C; 6H for example. Now you weren't really sure if partner's club cue was based on the K or a stiff (a stiff is much more likely). I suspect I would have bid 4h over 3 though, partner really had the absolute best possible hand for you.

[the_clown]

1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠ //Forcing many hands - Relay
3♣-3♥ //GF 5+♥4+♣ - ♥fit not dead min
3♠-4♣ //cuebid, cuebid serious slam try - shows the King (or Ace)
4N- 5♦ //1 KC
6♣-6♥

Of course the danger is that partner has only 3 ♥and 3♣ and no slam makes. But with only 3 trumps and Kxx and out partner would probably make a non serious slam try with 3N.

And if you put a diamond from the west hand into spades slam is completely hopeless losing diamond and a spade. So I wouldnt worry so much about it.

[whereagles]

The key here is the 4th trump. No way responder can figure that out... wouldn't the bidding be the same if he had xxx Jxx xxx KTxx?

I can only see one possible way out, which is opener to bid 4NT for keycards and then ask for the trump queen. If responder happens to have 5 card support, he'll say "yes I have it" and you can confidently bid 6. Maybe he'll do the same with 4 hearts, anticipating a six-suiter with opener. Other than this "imaginative bidding", I see no way to bid it.

By the way, I consider 4♠ an error, as well as 5♥.

4♠ because responder cannot possibly have more than he already showed, so 4♠ seems frivolous.
5♥ because responder should reevaluate his doubleton spade as a plus-value (it's opposite an expected AKx+), so he should bid SIX HEARTS.

[inquiry]

 Misiry_draft.pdf (218.54K)
Number of downloads: 6

Since this is non-natural forum, it gives me a chance to show off a Misiry Auction.. it has been a while.

3♣ is weak diamond preempt or a strong two suiter (5-5 or better) with four or less "losers". This is a three loser hand
3♦ pass.correct. It is possible East might have bid 4♦ as well, but here he didn't.
3NT = shows three loser hand with hearts and clubs two suiter.

Over 3NT, East has two potential covers!! The club king is a sure one, so five level is relatively safe. The doubleton spade is a possible "non-material king" taking care of a second round loser in that suit. So he can "explore" briefly slam possibility with a 4♦ denial cue-bid, denying a control in diamonds.

Over 4♦, West knows that partner's keycards are working (but partner might have, for instance five clubs, and is hoping opener is missing the club queen, so that responders hypothetical fifth club covers for a missing club queen, so he can't jump to slam). Opener's "cheapest" non-anchor suit (here four spades) would say only the spade ACE was working. Here he needs the spade king, so he can bid 4NT to show spade king works and he is missing one anchor queen, or he can bid 5C to show the spade king is working and he is not missing an anchor queen. So here he clearly bids 5C -- he needs any kind of spade control (ace or king) and that opener holds both queens in his two anchor suits.

Over 5♣, it is possible that opener has something like ♠xx ♥AKQxx ♦void ♣AQxxxx so responder can't just bid slam (off two spades), so he bids 5♦ which shows a non-material "spade" control, meaning a doubleton here (could even be three small). This is all opener needs to bid the slam. 6♣ is pass/correct, responder places the slam in hearts.

To show how this works I attached an old PDF draft version of the full misiry method which explains the nonmaterial cue-bid methods and why 5♦ cue-bid shows non-material spade control (basically, opener said any cover would work, so he can't have two diamonds, and you already denied a diamond control so no non-material diamond control can be useful, so the only thing of possible value is non-material control in spades).

---

[whereagles]

hmmm... while I understand the hand evaluation that leads to the misiry key bid of 4♦, I'm not sure I'd have the guts to do it at table.

In fact that is the problem with the misiry two-suited method: weak hand sets the level and strain. This might lead to systematic underbidding.

[inquiry]

whereagles, on 2014-July-08, 01:51, said:

hmmm... while I understand the hand evaluation that leads to the misiry key bid of 4♦, I'm not sure I'd have the guts to do it at table.

In fact that is the problem with the misiry two-suited method: weak hand sets the level and strain. This might lead to systematic underbidding.

There are problems with Misiry, but I think underbidding might not be one of them.

Over 4♦ you will most often stop with this East hand. Here is why.
If opener has two losing diamonds, he will bid 4♥ ending the auction opposite this East.
If opener doesn't need any kind of spade control he will rebid 4♥ as a warning as well, and opposite this east hand, this ends the auction
IF opener only needs the ♠Ace, he will bid 4♠ (cheapest bid not in anchor suit), and East will know the "non-material spade king" is useless and you get to 5♥ like the people in the original post.

It is difficult for West to visualize East having what he needs to bid this slam... a third spade and a two diamond would be disaster. IT is easier for East to figure out he has what West needs. Having the weaker hand in control is sort of how this works, as it is easier for him to begin to visualize what might work. That is the point.

[Valardent]

I can't have access to your misery draft Ben.

Web page with bbo error message keeps appearing (tried IE and Google Chrome)

Any patch or other link you could think of?

[inquiry]

Valardent, on 2014-July-08, 08:13, said:

I can't have access to your misery draft Ben.

Web page with bbo error message keeps appearing (tried IE and Google Chrome)

Any patch or other link you could think of?

private message me or write me an email at inquiry at bridgebase dot com and I will email you a pdf copy.

[whereagles]

inquiry, on 2014-July-08, 07:49, said:

There are problems with Misiry, but I think underbidding might not be one of them.

Over 4♦ you will most often stop with this East hand. Here is why.
If opener has two losing diamonds, he will bid 4♥ ending the auction opposite this East.
If opener doesn't need any kind of spade control he will rebid 4♥ as a warning as well, and opposite this east hand, this ends the auction
IF opener only needs the ♠Ace, he will bid 4♠ (cheapest bid not in anchor suit), and East will know the "non-material spade king" is useless and you get to 5♥ like the people in the original post.

It is difficult for West to visualize East having what he needs to bid this slam... a third spade and a two diamond would be disaster. IT is easier for East to figure out he has what West needs. Having the weaker hand in control is sort of how this works, as it is easier for him to begin to visualize what might work. That is the point.

I'm not sure I follow all this, but I do agree there can be cases where leaving the weak hand in control works better. After all, it was the strong hand that told its story, not the weak one.

Maybe I find some time to study the matter.

[inquiry]

whereagles, on 2014-July-09, 16:35, said:

inquiry, on 2014-July-08, 07:49, said:

There are problems with Misiry, but I think underbidding might not be one of them.

Over 4♦ you will most often stop with this East hand. Here is why.
If opener has two losing diamonds, he will bid 4♥ ending the auction opposite this East.
If opener doesn't need any kind of spade control he will rebid 4♥ as a warning as well, and opposite this east hand, this ends the auction
IF opener only needs the ♠Ace, he will bid 4♠ (cheapest bid not in anchor suit), and East will know the "non-material spade king" is useless and you get to 5♥ like the people in the original post.

It is difficult for West to visualize East having what he needs to bid this slam... a third spade and a two diamond would be disaster. IT is easier for East to figure out he has what West needs. Having the weaker hand in control is sort of how this works, as it is easier for him to begin to visualize what might work. That is the point.

I'm not sure I follow all this, but I do agree there can be cases where leaving the weak hand in control works better. After all, it was the strong hand that told its story, not the weak one.

Maybe I find some time to study the matter.

Let's see if we can make it easier to follow (probably not). The 4♦ bid denies a diamond control (in theory... there is a miserable lie where on some hands where you are going slammking anyway, you might deny controls when you have absolute control... see the notes.. but I have never had one of those hands yet). Over 4♦ then, you can see why opener, with two (or three) quick diamond losers would try to signoff. So 4♦ will result in you stopping in 4♥ anytime opener has two small diamonds (or three, which is his max -- of course with east holding the club king, partner can't have three small diamonds).

Now then, if opener is not off two quick diamonds, he is going to participate with the slam try responder made. UNLESS, he doesn't need a spade control. Why is this? :Let's say opener had something like.... ♠void ♥AJxxxx ♦AK ♣AQJxx over 4♦ he would still bid 4♥. Does this mean you will miss slams? No. If responder had ♥K (or Q) and ♣K and opener showed three losers, he still knows that there is a slam. The signoff when a control is not needed in the other off suit is just a warning not to count on a control in that other "off-suit". OF course, responder is not obligated to accept the signoff. Why, with heart king and long, and club king opposite such a signoff, it is still possible to bid the grand when you diagnosis the missing heart queen.

If opener needed only the ♠A (has a singleton spade, or has a losing diamond and no spade ace -- even if holding two spades) he would show that. Responder, without the spade ace would know to signoff at the five level. Imagine openers hand was, for instance the same hand but with Kx of spades rather than Ax. With Kx (or even xx because he knows he is off a diamond already so needs the spade ace) he will rebid 4♠ = only spade ACE works in spades.

So what all this means is that over 4♦ you get to 4♥ anytime: opener has two losing diamonds, anytime opener has no need for any kind of spade control. You get to six hearts SOMETIMES when opener needs the ♠K, and you get to 5♥ anytime opener needs the ♠Ace. Note, he can not be off two spades and a diamond since you have the ♣K and he has only 3 losers.

Now, as responder this is the trade-off at your second bid. Do you want to risk the five level if opener needs only the spade ACE but possibly get to six if he ♠K and end up in four hearts on most other hands. I think for me, the answer is yes. Not that 6♥ will be laydown or even bid on all hands where the spade king is "needed".. If opener is missing an anchor queen or two anchor kings the slam may not be that good. If you had the ♠K and a sure cover card in one of the anchor suits, over the 5♣ bid showing the spade king is needed, you would be able to bid the slam.so to show a "non-material ♠K express doubt about bidding the slam, and clearly shows onesure cover card (which here opener will know has to be the ♣K and a distributional 2nd round control of spades. On some hands, of course, responder might have two sure covers and distributional spade control but in that case responder would bid grand slam. Here opener will know responders hand. Responder will have the ♣K (only certain cover he can have) and a fit one or the other anchor suit, and two small spades. So opener will bid the pass/correct 6♣.

A more challenging hand is if opener is missing some anchor suit stuff.. a hand like ♠Ax [hd]AQJxx ♦A ♣AQxxx. Here the opener will know over 5♦ (non-material king of spades) that responder has one of the ♥K and ♣K. Here I think opener would be leary of bidding the slam, as the slam requires to pick up the missing anchor honor. Should opener signoff in 5♥ and responder bid slam anyway, opener will figure he has both missing kings and bid the grand (but really if responder had both kings and a fit, he would have bid grand over 5♣).

[awm]

1♣(1) - 1♦(2)
1♥(3) - 2♥(4)
4♦(5) - 5♣(6)
6♥?

(1) 16+ Artificial
(2) 0-4 or some GF hands
(3) 4+♥ or very strong balanced hand without 4♠
(4) 4+♥, 0-4
(5) splinter, slam interest opposite 0-4
(6) cuebid, good hand for slam considering

We can't bid slam with 100% confidence here, since the responder hand could be (for example) xxx JTxx xx Kxxx; however most hands with four hearts and the club king offer excellent play (basically you need six or fewer black cards).

[whereagles]

Ben: I skimmed through it. Promise to read it in more detail later this week-end

As quick comment I feel some of the inferences are quite deep. You really need to practice the method over and over with pard. I wonder if it's rewarding, given that two-suiters of this calibre are somewhat rare birds.

[inquiry]

whereagles, on 2014-July-10, 04:28, said:

Ben: I skimmed through it. Promise to read it in more detail later this week-end

As quick comment I feel some of the inferences are quite deep. You really need to practice the method over and over with pard. I wonder if it's rewarding, given that two-suiters of this calibre are somewhat rare birds.

There is no doubt that it is probably not worth the memory effort, especially for any casual partnership, but maybe even for others. The reason why I like it has little to do with when it is used, it has more to do when it is not used. It makes all two club openers "one suited" (or 6-4, 7-4, etc at best) and I places limits on the meaning of openers jumpshifts (obviously a hand suited for Misiry is no longer possible). Removing hand types from "other auctions" gives a lot of clarity to these much more common auctions. I also include all "acol two bids" in my 2♣ opening bids so that jump rebids in same suit are strictly limited. I should add, there is also problems with deciding if you should jump raise the preempt (not such a problem for a simple raise) when partner might not be preempting. This has caused problems a number of times.

On the other hand, most big two suiter don't involve trying to figure out it a non-material king in a side suit or non-material queen in the anchor suit is important or not, which greatly simplifies the auctions. For the non-material queen in anchor to be important, you need five card support... sort of rare. Non-material king you have to have N-2 covers (where N is the number of losers opener showed) plus the non-material control. If you have N-3 or N-1, just the normal check with the denial cue-bid or the show the 2nd round control action (like bidding 4NT or skipping the denial suit) will work.

Misiry is something Misho came up with (Mis from MISho,and iry from inquIRY, then I modified by adding the denial cue-bidding and non-material ask as an academic exercise to see if it would be playable. Bidding with notes and in a partnership bidding room it works great. Misho and I haven't partnered in a couple of years and the other partner I played this with had a stroke and no longer plays either. The few real world auctions I've had at the table have been successful when strong, but with mixed results when preempting. It is not currently being used to the best of my knowledge. Still, it is fun to occasionally see how it might work on such hands.

[chasetb]

This hand isn't easy to bid, especially when you use 1♥ as 19+ . We need to confirm the Heart fit, and be able to get some discards by East, so ♣Kx would be enough even if 4432.
My auction would start out similar to awm's:
1♣ - 1♦
1♥ (Nat, mb only 4) - 2♥ (0-5 HCP, usually 4+ , must have shortness if 0-3 HCP)

2♥ denies 4+ Spades in principle (definitely 5+), but I might bid 2♥ with 5432 QJx x Jxxxx .

Now I don't know whether to show my shortness in Diamonds or show a huge Heart-Club two-suiter. I think I should want to show the very nice second suit, since I need that King.

[PrecisionL]

C3: Copious Canape Club
1♣ (16+) - 1♦ (0-7) -
1♥ (a) 4+♥, or (b) 2+♥, balanced & 20+ - 2♥ (4+♥ & 3-5 hcp, no singleton/void)
3♣ (CAB) - 3♥(K♣) [Can not have K♠] -
3♠(CAB! Looking for xx) - 4♣ (3rd round control: xx or Qxx) -
4♠(which is it?) - 5♣ (xx) -
6♥ (hoping ♣s aren't 5-5) - - -

[dake50]

I'd get to 6C, and a hope the 4th heart corrects to 6H.
An asking bid structure finding CKxx+, and Hxxx+, no side A, ask any else?

[mikestar13]

Real Diamond Precision:

1♣(1)-1♦(2)
1♥(3)-2♥(4)
3♣(5)-3♥(6)
4♣(7)-5♣(8)
6♥(9)

(1) Artificial 16+
(2) 0-7
(3) hearts, may be only 4 with a longer minor, NOT balanced. Forcing one round.
(4) 0-4, four hearts or three hearts and a stiff.
(5) club suit, game forcing (2NT is artificial invite here)
(6) confirms 4 hearts, not worthless (would bid 4♥)
(7) ♣KQxxx or better ( 2 of top 3 honors) slam interest
(8) The missing ♣ honor.
(9) Take a shot that partner has some useful heart and or club intermediates. With something like ♠xxx ♥6432 ♦xxx♣K65, partner may well not show ♣K.