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Rule of 7 and 17 Ever hear of these rules? What are they

#1 User is offline   spadebaby 

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Posted 2014-June-28, 12:07

Playing in a social game this week, one party mentioned the rule of 7 and 17. But didn't elaborate since
play was necessary.
does anyone know what they are and how to use them?

Thanks,
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#2 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2014-June-28, 12:19

View Postspadebaby, on 2014-June-28, 12:07, said:

Playing in a social game this week, one party mentioned the rule of 7 and 17. But didn't elaborate since
play was necessary.
does anyone know what they are and how to use them?

Thanks,



Rule of 7 has to do with how long to hold up as declarer, see larry Cohen's description Larry's site

Rule of 17 has to do with trying for game (or bidding game) after partner opens a weak two spades or two hearts. Add your "trump support" to your HCP. If less than 17 you have no game, if 17 or more you can explore game. Larry has that one on his page as well (and some other rules too).
--Ben--

#3 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2014-June-28, 13:18

Hmmm, would you look for a heart game, especially NV or at MP, with a 4333 14 count Ben? Coming from an Acol background I have a different thought perspective - holding a normal weak 2 in a major after partner opens 1NT (weak) I transfer and pass (unless there is a super-accept); so holding a normal weak NT opposite a weak 2, why would I want to do anything other than pass?
(-: Zel :-)

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#4 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2014-June-28, 13:30

I am simply describing what the rules are. I don't use either one.
--Ben--

#5 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2014-June-28, 13:35

Rule of 17:
If partner opens a weak 2, add the number of high card points plus the number of trumps you hold. If the sum is at least 17, bid game in partner's suit. (Zeke Grabour, ACBL)

EDIT: Same as Ben ... I didn't see inquiry's first post .

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2014-June-28, 13:51

Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

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#6 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2014-June-28, 13:40

View PostZelandakh, on 2014-June-28, 13:18, said:

Hmmm, would you look for a heart game, especially NV or at MP, with a 4333 14 count Ben? Coming from an Acol background I have a different thought perspective - holding a normal weak 2 in a major after partner opens 1NT (weak) I transfer and pass (unless there is a super-accept); so holding a normal weak NT opposite a weak 2, why would I want to do anything other than pass?


While your logic is somewhat flawed - I can want to be in game opposite a 14-count with three trumps, yet still not be worth a try opposite 12-14 with 2-3 trumps - I suspect Larry's rule is meant to apply to stronger weak twos than those typically played by Acolytes.
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#7 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2014-June-28, 20:57

As I said, I don't use these rule of 7 or 15 (or any other static rules for that matter). As Larry Cohen points out it is better to think rather than blindly apply rules. Here is a recent hand where if you use the rule of 7 you are going down.

We got to a very light (and dangerous) 3NT. Partner thought he was providing 6 diamond tricks (he was). West lead the K, and if you apply the rule of 7, you would count your seven spades and subtract 7 from 7 and get 0, so you would not duck the first trick. What happens if you win the first trick, they will win three spades and two aces for down one. Simple, deadly, defense before you have any chance for 9 tricks. East 7 was presumably standard count.

You don't have a lot of hope if West has four spades and either minor suit ace. So you need spades to split 3-3 or East to have both minor aces. This way, you can win 1S, 6D, and try to figure out a way to score a heart and either a second heart or a club. The solution is an endplay, you can watch it perform as you run of diamonds puts pressure on East. If he shorts clubs, you can attack those, if he short hearts, you can attack those. In the end position, if East tries a club, you know to jump up with the K (and as result make an overtrick). The heart exit after winning the A by East holds you to 9 tricks.

Anyway, the point is these rules are about as useful as "eight-ever, nine-never"... and probably not even that good (and eight-ever, nine-never isn't all that good... you have to think instead of applying such rules blindly.


--Ben--

#8 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2014-June-29, 10:15

My advice is to forget ALL of these "Rules of X" and make a habit of looking at your cards and thinking about the hand.
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#9 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2014-June-29, 10:39

View PostTylerE, on 2014-June-29, 10:15, said:

My advice is to forget ALL of these "Rules of X" and make a habit of looking at your cards and thinking about the hand.

Since this question is in the B/N Forum, I think many Rules of X are helpful. Eventually, most players will outgrow them, but they are good starting points to learn what you should be looking for when bidding.
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#10 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2014-June-29, 13:33

Disagree. I've seen way too many novice players fail to advance because they mentally reduce everything down to "I can see X so I Y" type decisions. That's 180 degrees from the right mindset from bridge and it's hard to retrain them out of it once it sets.
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#11 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2014-June-29, 14:26

View PostTylerE, on 2014-June-29, 13:33, said:

Disagree. I've seen way too many novice players fail to advance because they mentally reduce everything down to "I can see X so I Y" type decisions. That's 180 degrees from the right mindset from bridge and it's hard to retrain them out of it once it sets.


I don't think so. I found most of the Rule of X stuff very useful at start. Way too many things to think about as a novice, at least these were a starting point. When I got bad results for blindly applying those I stopped and thought why did that happen. It's not stopping people from advancing if they want to think about the game. If they don't care to think about the game in general, it hardly makes any difference whether they use the Rules of X or not.

#12 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2014-June-29, 15:18

I'll elaborate further on this. Maybe you are forgetting just how much stuff a true novice has to deal with. I was a novice fairly recently, so I remember a lot of how confused I used to be (and I still have major flaws at basic level stuff, because I learned by picking info here and there, not from a consistent source).

Open with 12HCP or more plus follow-ups
I'd stare at a nice 5-5 carder with 10HCP, sigh, and pass.
Then, Rule of 20 told me it's OK to open with 10 points and 5-5! What a relief that was, to finally have a "rule" confirming my gut feeling that it can't be right to pass with such cards.

3rd hand plays high
When defending NT, I'd fly with my highest honor without thinking any further.
Then, someone told me about the Rule of 11. I had played the K on a sequence where it would have been obvious to anyone with a little experience that declarer could only have a stiff (most likely the Ace). This "rule" forced me to stop, count the suit, look at the bidding, and try to figure out what declarer had. If anything, it taught me to count and think more than any other approach would have - at that point.

It's OK to open lighter in 3rd and 4th. That one had me all confused. When is it right, and why? So I just started to randomly open all 11s in 3rd and 4th.
Rule of 15 gave me some insight of why spades are more important than the other suits, and taught me to think not only about my own hand, but about what could happen all around the table.

#13 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-June-29, 15:33

View Postdiana_eva, on 2014-June-29, 14:26, said:

I don't think so. I found most of the Rule of X stuff very useful at start. Way too many things to think about as a novice, at least these were a starting point. When I got bad results for blindly applying those I stopped and thought why did that happen. It's not stopping people from advancing if they want to think about the game. If they don't care to think about the game in general, it hardly makes any difference whether they use the Rules of X or not.


I would have upvoted this post and the one after if I could. It's so "cool" to say "don't use rules or X, Y or Z" but it's not very helpful for people who have not played enough to develop judgment or to know what to think about, and need something to rely on. And it seems to be said so often when newer players ask about this sort of thing. It's as if some posters need to show off the fact that they are not beginners anymore.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#14 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2014-June-29, 19:15

View Postdiana_eva, on 2014-June-29, 15:18, said:

Open with 12HCP or more plus follow-ups
I'd stare at a nice 5-5 carder with 10HCP, sigh, and pass.
Then, Rule of 20 told me it's OK to open with 10 points and 5-5! What a relief that was, to finally have a "rule" confirming my gut feeling that it can't be right to pass with such cards.


This example pretty much sums up exactly my issue with this type of thinking. Rather than doing some sort of new math, why not teach: Hands with long suits, and two suiters, often play much better than their point count would suggest, so look at your length and suit quality and upgrade accordingly.

Consider an example hand like xxxxx AK K xxxxx
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#15 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-June-29, 21:49

View PostTylerE, on 2014-June-29, 19:15, said:

This example pretty much sums up exactly my issue with this type of thinking. Rather than doing some sort of new math, why not teach: Hands with long suits, and two suiters, often play much better than their point count would suggest, so look at your length and suit quality and upgrade accordingly.

Consider an example hand like xxxxx AK K xxxxx


It's better to teach stuff like this like:

1. Make the point, e.g that hands with a long suit or two suiters play better, here are some examples
2. Here is a good rule of thumb that you can use in your decision making.
3. However, remain aware that there exceptions - e.g. your example hand. The rule cannot be taken with blind faith and you should use your judgement. You can then pose some questions about when you might apply the rule and when you might not.

Teaching the rule of thumb and teaching people to think critically are not mutually exclusive. Rules of thumb are very useful.
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#16 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2014-June-29, 22:26

Plus it is good to let people experience following the rules for a while and then learning where they work and where they don't and adjusting. Trying things like opening all rule of 20 hands and/or opening all 7 LTC hands will help move people away from strict HCP thinking. Something like the rule of 7 is useful especially once you realize it is helping you by waiting the right amount if the suit splits with the long suit having 5 and the long suit has no entry (and you'll be losing something to the short suit). If the suit splits more evenly (the long suit having 4) then you haven't cut off the suit, but then they aren't winning enough tricks to set 3nt.
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#17 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2014-June-30, 00:03

View PostTylerE, on 2014-June-29, 19:15, said:

This example pretty much sums up exactly my issue with this type of thinking. Rather than doing some sort of new math, why not teach: Hands with long suits, and two suiters, often play much better than their point count would suggest, so look at your length and suit quality and upgrade accordingly.

Consider an example hand like xxxxx AK K xxxxx


The point I was trying to make with this example isn't that beginners introduced to Rule of 20 discover a new god to follow, but rather that a simple "rule" like that, covering a specific situation or range of hands will be easier to grasp, apply, and experiment with, rather than something like "look at your length and suit quality and upgrade accordingly". For a real novice that's pretty much Chinese. They don't know what "upgrade accordingly" means when they're still at a level where they struggle with counting points, tricks and thinking about which hands are openings and which aren't.

#18 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2014-June-30, 06:28

Of course, rules are not cast in stone and you need to think (at the point where you have learned to think), but even if you know how to think (and I think I do) some rules can be handy.

As an example, the rule of 11 (for 4th best leads) (and in its generalized form the rule of 15-n [for nth best leads]) is handy to calculate how many higher cards the unknown hand has. And once you know how many higher cards the unknown hand has, it is also easier to determine what these higher cards then could be. (It is also handy to determine what the other unknown hand knows about your hand.)

So, some of these rules work quite well, also for those beyond beginner level. Other rules are simply bad rules (e.g. the rule of 1-2-3 for preempts) that only work in a field of beginners only.

Rik
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#19 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-June-30, 12:41

I found only one site with an author's list of "Rule of" by number. It was partly humor and not all inclusive...prepared by some teacher in the midwest.

Anyone got a good reference for all those "Rule of"'s? Whether we agree with them or not, they are useful base-reference for teaching at various levels. I have my own "Rule of" 2&3, etc. which are not standard, but that is irrelevant. (Like, preempts should make it difficult for 2 people at the table, not 3.)
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#20 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2014-June-30, 14:55

Like "The Code" in Pirates of the Caribbean, these Rules are more like guidelines.
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