[gnasher]

---

What would you do
(a) If 4♣ would be natural
(b) If 4♣ would be 5-5 in clubs and a major.

[jallerton]

(a) and (b). Double. If partner bids 3♥, now I bid 4♣. If partner jumps to 4♥, I pass, being ready to apologise at the end of the hand if this is a silly contract.

[Cascade]

3♠ is an option.

4♣ is probably better if it shows two suits.

[gszes]

Pass

Sure somedays you will get lucky and make something but who knows
what you will do if you ever have a hand strong enough to actually bid here.
Examining the evidence seems to make it abundantly clear that lho is ready
willing and thoroughly able to pounce on your side for a monstrous penalty.

P has passed and for light opening bidders this has to be something of a wake
up call as to how badly we can get slaughtered here. rho has a average 8 we have
15 so there are 17 hcp running around loose somewhere and with p dropping to an
average of 6 due to original pass lho will average 11 positionally advantaged
hcp that does not bode well for our side. Sometimes it may be better to let the
preempt do its job and save your bidding for hands with a bit more potential.

I have some sympathy for 3s (going for the money) and 4c bidders but realistically
these bids both seem to have less than a 30% chance of success and invite some really
huge negative scores.

OMHO pass=8 4c =3 3s x = 2

I think x is really overrated since we need that bid to x and bid 4c to show a monster
hand and some may abuse that concept over 3/4h from partner. I also think 4c showing
clubs and spades is somewhat superior to a straight 4c and feel it is worth somewhere
between 4 and 5.

[FrancesHinden]

Double followed by 4♣, which should show clubs and four spades not a huge single suited hand which bids some number of clubs (or NT) at once.
4H in a 5-2 fit isn't the end of the world: try xx KQxxx xxx Axx on a diamond lead (yes a carefully selected hand!)

Double also gets to 3NT sometimes and I'm not embarrassed by my playing strength.

[whereagles]

pard is a passed hand?

pass regardless

[FrancesHinden]

I've found the hand now when it was written up and seen what happened at the table where the opening bid was 3D.
Wow.

[jallerton]

 gszes (reformatted to fit on a sensible number of lines), on 2014-June-28, 09:19, said:

Pass

Sure somedays you will get lucky and make something but who knows what you will do if you ever have a hand strong enough to actually bid here. Examining the evidence seems to make it abundantly clear that lho is ready willing and thoroughly able to pounce on your side for a monstrous penalty.

P has passed and for light opening bidders this has to be something of a wake up call as to how badly we can get slaughtered here. rho has a average 8 we have 15 so there are 17 hcp running around loose somewhere and with p dropping to an average of 6 due to original pass lho will average 11 positionally advantaged hcp that does not bode well for our side. Sometimes it may be better to let the preempt do its job and save your bidding for hands with a bit more potential.

I have some sympathy for 3s (going for the money) and 4c bidders but realistically these bids both seem to have less than a 30% chance of success and invite some really huge negative scores.

OMHO pass=8 4c =3 3s x = 2
I think x is really overrated since we need that bid to x and bid 4c to show a monster hand and some may abuse that concept over 3/4h from partner. I also think 4c showing clubs and spades is somewhat superior to a straight 4c and feel it is worth somewhere
between 4 and 5.

Thanks for the advice. In future I'll wait until I have 10 tricks in my own hand before I come in on this auction. The doubled undertricks are so much worse vulnerable, how silly of me to focus on the possibility of a vulnerable game, or even to fantasise that partner might choose a more favourable action such as 4♠, 4♦, 3NT, 3♠ or pass over my double. In my dreams partner might be intelligent enough to work out that (3♦)-dbl-3♥-4♣-4♦ is available as choice of games to cater for me holding 3=3=1=6 or 4=2=1=6. Following your recommendation, it could be a couple of years before I do anything other than pass over a 3♦ opening, but at least my partner won't be deceived into thinking that I hold a monster hand.

[Cyberyeti]

 gszes, on 2014-June-28, 09:19, said:

Pass

Sure somedays you will get lucky and make something but who knows
what you will do if you ever have a hand strong enough to actually bid here.
Examining the evidence seems to make it abundantly clear that lho is ready
willing and thoroughly able to pounce on your side for a monstrous penalty.

P has passed and for light opening bidders this has to be something of a wake
up call as to how badly we can get slaughtered here. rho has a average 8 we have
15 so there are 17 hcp running around loose somewhere and with p dropping to an
average of 6 due to original pass lho will average 11 positionally advantaged
hcp that does not bode well for our side. Sometimes it may be better to let the
preempt do its job and save your bidding for hands with a bit more potential.

I have some sympathy for 3s (going for the money) and 4c bidders but realistically
these bids both seem to have less than a 30% chance of success and invite some really
huge negative scores.

OMHO pass=8 4c =3 3s x = 2

I think x is really overrated since we need that bid to x and bid 4c to show a monster
hand and some may abuse that concept over 3/4h from partner. I also think 4c showing
clubs and spades is somewhat superior to a straight 4c and feel it is worth somewhere
between 4 and 5.

You are a mile off, it's entirely conceivable you will concede 3♦= when you were making a slam (whether you're bidding it or not). K109xx, xxx, xxx, Ax seems to offer decent chances and swap the Q♠ for the 10 it's excellent.

[Fluffy]

 FrancesHinden, on 2014-June-28, 15:25, said:

I've found the hand now when it was written up and seen what happened at the table where the opening bid was 3D.
Wow.

I don't know that exact table where this was the opening, but I recall most of the field missed the 4-4 spade fit. Is jumping on the 4 cad suit with stron g6-4 out of fashion or what?

[PhantomSac]

 Fluffy, on 2014-June-29, 00:44, said:

Is jumping on the 4 cad suit with stron g6-4 out of fashion or what?

Are you suggesting a 4S overcall?

[PhantomSac]

I have always overcalled 4C with this hand type. I have always felt trepidation of missing spades or 3N, but X has always just seemed too scary. X then 4C is not like a great solution, we are a little bit light (but no it doesn't show a MONSTER, it is still what we would do with an ace more and I think we are like a queen light for what partner will expect. Maybe that is circular though and if we X with this hand type he can expect it but then we have a really wide range for a bid that is at the 4 level already and partner has no invites...). But that might just be irrational fear (and when you are SCARED of Xing with 2 hearts, your natural fall back is overcalling in your long suit). I could definitely be convinced that X is right, it is so foreign to me to X with a doubleton major and a hand that is not that good though.

I think partner being a passed hand makes 4C better, he can bid 4M over it suggesting a max pass with a 5 card suit, he can cuebid as a strain probe rather than having us think that is definitely a slam try in clubs, etc. But maybe that's not right also. I have definitely bid 4C and had partner pass with 5 spades and 1 club and felt dumb lol. I really think this hand type just sucks.

[FrancesHinden]

It's easier when you aren't playing 4C as natural, because you don't have the temptation.

[FrancesHinden]

 Fluffy, on 2014-June-29, 00:44, said:

I don't know that exact table where this was the opening, but I recall most of the field missed the 4-4 spade fit. Is jumping on the 4 cad suit with stron g6-4 out of fashion or what?

It's fair to say that most of the field would not have had a 3D opening.

[Cascade]

 PhantomSac, on 2014-June-29, 01:00, said:

Are you suggesting a 4S overcall?

I can't imagine a 4♠ overcall but I will say again I think 3♠ is reasonable.

[Fluffy]

 PhantomSac, on 2014-June-29, 01:00, said:

Are you suggesting a 4S overcall?

yeah, the hand is not strong enough to jump to 6 yet

[PhilKing]

 PhantomSac, on 2014-June-29, 01:07, said:

I have always overcalled 4C with this hand type. I have always felt trepidation of missing spades or 3N, but X has always just seemed too scary. X then 4C is not like a great solution, we are a little bit light (but no it doesn't show a MONSTER, it is still what we would do with an ace more and I think we are like a queen light for what partner will expect. Maybe that is circular though and if we X with this hand type he can expect it but then we have a really wide range for a bid that is at the 4 level already and partner has no invites...). But that might just be irrational fear (and when you are SCARED of Xing with 2 hearts, your natural fall back is overcalling in your long suit). I could definitely be convinced that X is right, it is so foreign to me to X with a doubleton major and a hand that is not that good though.

Just relax, take a deep breath, and come over to the unequal level conversion club.

I've looked at so many of these hands from top-level play recently it's scary. Basically, these sequences should just show sound rather than huge values (there is one exception - removing a major to a major). And as long as we have tops in our suits, we have "blockers" to the raise. It's such a huge winner I considered not posting!

[FrancesHinden]

I'm surprised by your exception (removing a major to a major)

How to you bid, say,

KQxxx
Axx
x
AKJx

over a 3D opening?

I would double and bid 3S over 3H

[PhilKing]

 FrancesHinden, on 2014-June-29, 14:24, said:

I'm surprised by your exception (removing a major to a major)

How to you bid, say,

KQxxx
Axx
x
AKJx

over a 3D opening?

I would double and bid 3S over 3H

As who would not? This one shows extras - the others don't. To give a concrete example of a "sound values":

♠KT986
♥AJ43
♦J6
♣A4

After 3♣ on the right, Cohen and Schwartz both doubled and passed a 3♦ response. I would continue with 3♠. I am only telling you this because 3♦ went 2 down and 4♠ makes.

[whereagles]

 PhantomSac, on 2014-June-29, 01:00, said:

Are you suggesting a 4S overcall?

It's a pun. A guy once overcalled 6♦ over a 3M preempt on a 4D-6C hand and found a 4-4 fit across. Turned out it's the only slam that makes and that is the only way to bid it.