[neilkaz]

---

You're playing basic 2/1 without NFB's and with a 2/1 in competition not being GF (ie reverts to S/A) but promising a rebid like in S/A.

What's your call after this annoying overcall?

Scoring is IMPs on BBO with noone vul.

[MrAce]

Double

My subsequent action depends on if it is MP or IMP. But in general pd is marked with 4+♦ unless he bids 2M.
Over 2♥ I would bid 3♦, over 2♠ I would bid game.When I bid 3♦ over 2♥ I expect pd to bid his 4 card spades if he has only 3 diamonds.

All of this assuming pd will open longer minor, and clubs from 3-3.

[PhilKing]

On potential dynamite hands it pays to overbid and hope for the best, imo. On that basis, my experience (and the experience of seeing what happened to others) strongly leans towards the overbid of 2♠ and keeping my fingers crossed.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2014-May-18, 10:39, said:

On potential dynamite hands it pays to overbid and hope for the best, imo. On that basis, my experience (and the experience of seeing what happened to others) strongly leans towards the overbid of 2♠ and keeping my fingers crossed.

Depends what you've agreed 3♠ to mean, I might try that overbid if it shows a raise to 4♦ with 5 spades, it will place partner better if the next hand bids 4/5♣.

[gwnn]

Is 2S really GF? Whatevs, still gonna go for it. I prefer not to hide a 5-card major if possible, and now it seems it is possible.

[MrAce]

gwnn, on 2014-May-18, 13:34, said:

Is 2S really GF? Whatevs, still gonna go for it. I prefer not to hide a 5-card major if possible, and now it seems it is possible.

OP said 2/1 in comp are not GF. So 2♠ is pretty reasonable imo. Particularly when we have a fit and shape, if things go south.

[gwnn]

Oops, I really need to get some new glasses...

[PhilKing]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-May-18, 11:58, said:

Depends what you've agreed 3♠ to mean, I might try that overbid if it shows a raise to 4♦ with 5 spades, it will place partner better if the next hand bids 4/5♣.

Why do you keep making non-standard systemic suggestions in the N and B section?

Were 3♠ an option, OP would have mentioned it.

[Cyberyeti]

PhilKing, on 2014-May-18, 15:29, said:

Why do you keep making non-standard systemic suggestions in the N and B section?

Were 3♠ an option, OP would have mentioned it.

3♠ is not something the OP mentioned so I don't know what it would mean for him, it's not "systemic" to any system, it's an add-on many people play regardless of what system they're playing including below intermediate level.

[the hog]

PhilKing, on 2014-May-18, 15:29, said:

Why do you keep making non-standard systemic suggestions in the N and B section?

Were 3♠ an option, OP would have mentioned it.

He does this repeatedly. If the op played this then surely he would mention it. Further this is the Novice section.

[mike777]

2s
no prb yet.

[MrAce]

I have to confess, even though I voted for double, the more I think the more I like 2♠

[steve2005]

MrAce, on 2014-May-19, 05:51, said:

I have to confess, even though I voted for double, the more I think the more I like 2♠

I don't see the point of double. unless partner has 5♥ then were playing in ♠ or ♦ or maybe 3N. if opener was planning to reverse he can bid 3♥ over 2♠ then we will look for slam probably in 6♦.

[jmcilkley]

No choice - has to be 2s (forcing and showing 5 spades - with only 4 I would double). Why do some people want to bid 3s?? It takes up bidding space and is totally unnecessary when 2s is forcing.

neilkaz, on 2014-May-18, 10:26, said:

---

You're playing basic 2/1 without NFB's and with a 2/1 in competition not being GF (ie reverts to S/A) but promising a rebid like in S/A.

What's your call after this annoying overcall?

Scoring is IMPs on BBO with noone vul.

[Zelandakh]

jmcilkley, on 2014-May-19, 08:10, said:

No choice - has to be 2s (forcing and showing 5 spades - with only 4 I would double). Why do some people want to bid 3s?? It takes up bidding space and is totally unnecessary when 2s is forcing.

The issue with 2♠ is that it could easily propel us into a low-hcp 3NT with practically no chance. That does not make it the wrong call but to say there is no choice is far from the truth. The suggestion for 3♠ was in the context of fit jumps, in which case it shows 9 of our cards in one go plus the general (offensive) strength. Even if playing them it is not clear that this hand should make that call but fortunately we can avoid that debate, since the OP does not have them available.

[steve2005]

This is an interesting situation 1♦-(2♣) and not just to novices. 2♣ uses up the maximum bidding space and as an overcaller you should be aware of this situation and overcall 2♣ whenever possible. It is almost has as much disruptive effect as a pre-empt. Also, responder will have difficulties when only has 1 4-card major.

Also of note if responder's hand was a Queen weaker, they should play safe and raise with 2♦ rather than forcing partnership to the 3-level with 2♠ bid.

The same hold true if responder only have 4♠, then a neg. double is not so hot (partner may have 4♥ & 2♠ for example). So, again a 2♦ raise is safer.

[MrAce]

steve2005, on 2014-May-19, 08:07, said:

I don't see the point of double. unless partner has 5♥ then were playing in ♠ or ♦ or maybe 3N. if opener was planning to reverse he can bid 3♥ over 2♠ then we will look for slam probably in 6♦.

The point of double is simple and important. And even though I like 2♠ more and more, I think the point of "double" is also important for the N/B level. Zel already wrote what I was about to reply for the most part.

I would suggest to N/B players to NOT to focus on or seek the absolute correct bid. They will see for themselves in the future that there are very rare "absolute correct bid" or "no other choice" situations.

I will make a summary of my own knowledge for N/B players related to this topic.

1-After they overcall, our 2/1 responses are forcing 1 round and does not promise another bid unless they are forced to.(this does not mean they will pass next turn unless they are forced, but they may) This is the most common usage of this 2/1 new suit after they overcall.
2-Which hands should make one round forcing 2/1 response when they overcall? Usually it is 10 or 11+ hands and some very good 8-9 hcps (such as 6 card suit instead of 5 and or other features that upgrades the hand) with 5+ cards in the suit.
3-We should not bid our 5 card suit at 2 level just because we can not bid them at 1 level due to their overcall or simply our suit is lower rank that can not be bid at 1 level. We can pass with very weak hands or we can use negative double with 7+ hcp. It is important to note that negative double does NOT mean the responder is weak or limited. He may not have a 5 card suit to bid at 2 level with a lot of hcps. Or he may have a 5 card suit but not adequate values to start at 2 level

Now back to this particular hand we hold. Which bid should we choose in this context? It is a borderline hand. It is slightly weaker than the usual 2/1 response after they overcall. So starting double, with very comfortable rebids due the diamond fit (Note that opener can hold 3 card diamonds ONLY when he has 4-4 majors in standard methods) is hell of a reasonable call. Is this 9 hcp good enough to make a 2♠ bid? Imho this is not the best 9 hcp that I know, but I can not say it is bad either. We should figure whether it is a "good" or "random" 9 hcp in this auction.

-It does not hold 6 card in the suit, which is usually the main factor that makes 8-9 hcp hands to stretch it to bid at 2 level.(but not limited to)
-All the hcps are in our long suits which is a good feature
-We have a fit to diamonds (Qxxx) which is good regardless of we play in spades or diamonds. Possible double fit is always good when you decide to stretch your hand.
-We are not balanced and have a singleton in their suit. Good feature.
-Introducing our 5 card major is important.
-2♠ bid will force your pd to bid at 3 level, while double can save some space.

I think it is pretty borderline decision with 2♠ being slightly better in my own conclusion. It is a "good" 9 hcp in this auction rather than a "random/usual" 9 hcp. (in this auction) What is wrong is to be too opined in decisions that are not as far from each other as some people make of it. I am not ashamed to confess that what I voted for and what I concluded are different. It is normal when the decision is borderline, and it is healthy/useful for me not to close my eyes and ears to what others said and try to understand, instead of blindly defending my vote.

[MrAce]

3♠ fit jumps are simply not for this forum.

[neilkaz]

MrAce, on 2014-May-19, 17:07, said:

3♠ fit jumps are simply not for this forum.

Wouldn't a 3♠ fit jump be forcing? I have to ask in this forum since I basically never see them around these parts and almost everyone in my clubs would play 3♠ as WJS.

[MrAce]

neilkaz, on 2014-May-19, 17:30, said:

Wouldn't a 3♠ fit jump be forcing? I have to ask in this forum since I basically never see them around these parts and almost everyone in my clubs would play 3♠ as WJS.

I will PM you my answer in order to not hijack the thread

But overall this is very complicated even for I/A forums. It needs a lot of experience how to deal with double fits and hand evaluations, agreements in continuations and so on. It is not something that comes in a box with instructions on it how to handle the continuation. Merits of it comes handy long after you start to play them, in the auctions where you actually have comfy reading hand of pd due to lack of these bids as well as when they come.

One can easily live without them. One can easily make money as a pro player without them. A lot of players won BB or world champs and nationals or national team trials without them and still keep on winning them. I think a N/B can easily live without them.