[Zelandakh]

gwnn, on 2013-November-12, 05:58, said:

There should be a difference between the two of course

How about:
2♥ - 2♠; any - 3♠ = GF with 5 spades
2♥ - 3♠ = GF with 6+ spades and 2 hearts
2♥ - 2NT; any - 3NT = GF (and NF) with 6 spades and heart shortage

[JLOGIC]

I don't know the system at all but 3H seems normal? If partner is 2551 he can bid on with 3S, we went out of our way to show spades to begin with so it's not like we have 5 spades and 3 hearts ever. If we have 3 hearts our hand must be very spade oriented to go out of our way to show spades. Most of the time I'd assume we are 5-2 or 6-2, in which case 2551 should bid 3S (even if we do happen to be 5-3 somehow which I doubt is possible, 2551 is a very good shape opposite that and will probably want to play a game). I suspect you are not supposed to bid 2N with a 5-3 invite ever though, so that later heart bids imply a doubleton unless an extreme hand type like 6 good spades and 3 small hearts, much like in systems we are familiar with.

[JLOGIC]

A 6-1 spade fit might be better than a 5-2 heart fit, but partner could easily have 6 hearts (I assume?) and could easily have 0 spades so catering specifically to partner being 15xx and spades playing better than hearts is not a good choice imo.

[rhm]

JLOGIC, on 2013-November-18, 15:24, said:

A 6-1 spade fit might be better than a 5-2 heart fit, but partner could easily have 6 hearts (I assume?) and could easily have 0 spades so catering specifically to partner being 15xx and spades playing better than hearts is not a good choice imo.

I am not convinced.
Opener holding 1-5 in the majors is a probable holding, opener holding 6 hearts much less so. Since this is a bit of a guess frequencies matter.
Even with a void in spades, spades could play better because the six card suit is strong. I would not suggest 3♠ with a weaker suit.
One issue with opener bidding 3♠ over 3♥ is, that you will have to raise yourself to game, while partner might pass 3♠ with a doubleton spade and a bad hand for game.

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

deleted

[JLOGIC]

rhm, on 2013-November-19, 03:27, said:

One issue with opener bidding 3♠ over 3♥ is, that you will have to raise yourself to game, while partner might pass 3♠ with a doubleton spade and a bad hand for game.

Not necessarily if you don't want to, logically it seems like partner can bid 3S with a min 2551 (declining our invite and realizing spades is an equal or better fit than hearts) and 4C with a max 2551 (accepting our invite and offering a choice of games, cannot be any kind of slam move since we made a NF 3H bid). Of course I just made that up but I think it makes sense.

I agree with you that 15 is the most likely major suit holding, and in those cases spades will probably play better (but not always or anything, esp since we know nothing of suit quality from pard), but I do not think that makes up for the times he has 6 hearts where hearts will almost definitely be better, and the times when he has 0553 in which case hearts will usually play better, even though those are less frequent.

It seems complicated and I think someone could write a book about it. I have no doubt the 2M constructive auctions are difficult since they start so high. Until such a book is written maybe gwnn should just bid a ton of hands in partnership bidding and see what he thinks works best/what his partnership is comfortable with.

[gwnn]

Thanks for the replies from all!

@Zel: sorry, 3♠ directly is a splinter. Plus it seems to be a bit difficult to remember (I know how stupid that sounds from a guy who apparently learned a 170-page book already but yes that's how I feel about 3 separate ways to introduce spades).

[benlessard]

I also think 3H is obvious.

[Lurpoa]

I for once am convinced 3♥ is the best bid.