[StevenG]

Vampyr, on 2013-September-15, 09:36, said:

IMO, "guaranteeing" five cards does not necessarily mean that I have them, and does not mean that you shouldn't overcall if you think it's right. If partner is really rigid about this, there's always, "sorry, I had a diamond in with my spades".

The problem is that partner will bid as though I have five. I don't want to be getting too high and going off in 3♠ or 4♠ if they can't make 3♥. A response structure that caters for partner overcalling with four isn't normal in the Acol environment in which the original question was set. Maybe other envronments have different response structures? Last time I looked at the vote, none of the 1♠ bidders were Acol players.

This is the N/B forum. I think answers should assume that partner is intermediate at most, and keep it rigorous.

[monikrazy]

1S seems vastly superior to double, assuming we are using the doubles for takeouts, and appears to be the best bid available overall.


Like other posters have said, misrepresenting out diamond length is a major problem (and more so without any diamond honors).

1♥ - DBL - 3♥ (weak)
1♥ - DBL - 4♥ (weak)

In auctions like the above partner may put us in ♦, counting on 3 or 4 card support and we can go down for major penalty.

Compare that to the downside of our partner playing us for an extra spade; partner can hardly be too upset seeing our full values for over-call. Moreover, we will frequently have space to slow down if partner has game-seeking values.

[gwnn]

When partner bids like that he will have 6+ cards in diamonds basically always. With 54 in minors either way he has x or 4NT available and 5332 can shut up or double (responsive) but anyway that is very unlikely given our hand. We stand to lose a lot more if partner freely supports us on 3 cards amidst competition because he will not look for an alternative strain normally, not even with a 5- or 6-card side minor. Sure he can make a fit bid if you play that but most people play raises thereof as forcing..

[eagles123]

StevenG, on 2013-September-15, 09:53, said:

The problem is that partner will bid as though I have five. I don't want to be getting too high and going off in 3♠ or 4♠ if they can't make 3♥. A response structure that caters for partner overcalling with four isn't normal in the Acol environment in which the original question was set. Maybe other envronments have different response structures? Last time I looked at the vote, none of the 1♠ bidders were Acol players.

This is the N/B forum. I think answers should assume that partner is intermediate at most, and keep it rigorous.

Yes overcalling with 4 isn't normally the done thing in Acol (at least at my level) but I can see why it might be the best bid due to the problem with diamonds

[eagles123]

StevenG, on 2013-September-15, 09:53, said:

The problem is that partner will bid as though I have five. I don't want to be getting too high and going off in 3♠ or 4♠ if they can't make 3♥. A response structure that caters for partner overcalling with four isn't normal in the Acol environment in which the original question was set. Maybe other envronments have different response structures? Last time I looked at the vote, none of the 1♠ bidders were Acol players.

This is the N/B forum. I think answers should assume that partner is intermediate at most, and keep it rigorous.

duplicate post

[ggwhiz]

I have a rule with my partner that anytime your bid is justified by moving a 2 from one suit to another you don't need to apologize if it doesn't work.

I prefer 1♠ here but have no problem with double either. Just be consistent with what you choose on different hand types and pard will be able to cope and recognize that you can't win em all.

Would you open 1♦ on xx, AKQT, Qxxxx, JT? I wouldn't and my pard knows it.

[cherdano]

I don't like overcalling on a four-card suit with a hand this strong. If I want to invited next after partner's bid, I usually have no choice but to misdescribe my hand further.
So I double.

[the hog]

StevenG, on 2013-September-15, 09:53, said:

A response structure that caters for partner overcalling with four isn't normal in the Acol environment in which the original question was set. Maybe other envronments have different response structures? Last time I looked at the vote, none of the 1♠ bidders were Acol players.

snipped

This is not correct. Overcalling and defensive bidding and a bidding system are not related. There is nothing in the world that says you cannot overcall on 4 cards playing any system.

[StevenG]

I meant, of course, a structure for responding to overcalls.

[PhilG007]

eagles123, on 2013-September-13, 06:43, said:

presume Matchpoints

---

any bid here

Thanks

Eagles

Pass and await developments. This is a "limbo" hand. It's true I have good suits ....but what does LHO have(?)
Any bid I make could backfire big time. Enterprise is a good thing for a man to have in his upper storey...provided he has common
sense on the ground floor(!)

[the hog]

StevenG, on 2013-September-16, 01:15, said:

I meant, of course, a structure for responding to overcalls.

Even a structure for responding to overcalls is not part of Acol pre se. Read any book on Acol bidding - eg by Reese or Crowhurst; you will find nothing on overcalls or responding to them.

[the hog]

PhilG007, on 2013-September-16, 01:29, said:

Pass and await developments. This is a "limbo" hand. It's true I have good suits ....but what does LHO have(?)
Any bid I make could backfire big time. Enterprise is a good thing for a man to have in his upper storey...provided he has common
sense on the ground floor(!)

Since you are so fond of aphorisms, here is one for you: "Tis better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought of as a fool rather than to open it and remove all doubt.

[PhilG007]

the hog, on 2013-September-16, 01:44, said:

Since you are so fond of aphorisms, here is one for you: "Tis better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought of as a fool rather than to open it and remove all doubt.

"To thine own self be true "

[ArtK78]

the hog, on 2013-September-16, 01:44, said:

Since you are so fond of aphorisms, here is one for you: "Tis better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought of as a fool rather than to open it and remove all doubt.

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt." Often attributed to Abraham Lincoln. It appears to be a quote of Mark Twain.

Unfortunately, not a common practice on these Fora (including myself at times).

[Zelandakh]

ArtK78, on 2013-September-16, 08:09, said:

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt." Often attributed to Abraham Lincoln. It appears to be a quote of Mark Twain.

It is considerably older than this. The most common theory is that it comes from biblical times, with the earliest written reference probably being Proverbs 17:28:

Quote

Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

[ArtK78]

Zelandakh, on 2013-September-16, 10:07, said:

It is considerably older than this. The most common theory is that it comes from biblical times, with the earliest written reference probably being Proverbs 17:28:

Yes, I would not doubt that its origins lie in this passage. But the tenor of the passage is much different. The biblical verse implies that a fool may be thought of as a wise man if he remains silent. The modern quote implies that if you remain silent others might think that you are stupid, but they would not know for sure.

But the open your mouth and remove all doubt part is new, and certainly noteworthy.

[the hog]

The other one I like is "Are you a complete idiot or is this a work in progress?"

[suleiman22]

It seems to me like pass is your only option. Your hand is too one-sided for 1NT and four-card suits seem a little weak to overcall. Anything I am missing? Or do others think that pass is correct? Thanks!
Suleiman

[Zelandakh]

suleiman22, on 2013-September-23, 15:23, said:

It seems to me like pass is your only option. Your hand is too one-sided for 1NT and four-card suits seem a little weak to overcall. Anything I am missing? Or do others think that pass is correct? Thanks!

I also voted for Pass but AKJ9 is a perfectly good suit to overcall at the 1 level for many. Similarly, when partner bids diamonds after a double they will usually have 5 or more, so a takeout double is not a dangerous as you might think. You have to weigh up the dangers of these things against the danger of not getting your strength across immediately and feeling compelled to come in later when it is much more dangerous. This is to a large extent a matter of style. It is good to understand that there are different styles around.

Usually such alternatives have pros and cons. It also matters at what level you regularly play - at high levels opponents often open and respond much lighter than in club bridge and that increases the risk from a first round pass. The downside of immediate off-shape action is that it becomes harder for the partnership to compete to the right level on some hands. Many who believe strongly in this approach conveniently forget this point. Those who believe strongly in a more traditional approach either underestimate the dangers of second round action or lose many part score hands by not competing. The truth is that these decisions have knock-on effects and some hands are good for one approach and others for another. As long as both partners are aware of what to expect you can do well with choosing any of the three actions on this hand.