[barsikb]

Dealer: East

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How would you bid this hand? Would you go to slam?

You may not like this bidding but I'd like to get an answer anyway...

1♠ - 2♦
3♦ - 4NT

If using RKCB 0314, South supposed to answer about Diamonds, right? How to check ♠ K and Q then?

[eagles123]

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a possible auction?

whether I would actually bid like that I don't know, would maybe chicken out and settle for game!!

I think 4NT asks for KC in diamonds unless u have other agreements but how then to ask for specific cards in spades I dunno sorry!!

[TylerE]

This hand is why I like 1M-3N as 15-17 with exactly 3 card support. Admittedly it doesn't actually help on this hand, but it firms up your 1M-2m-3m sequences a lot as responder will no longer be going back to the major with a garden variety good hand - if he starts with 2m and then goes back it will be a near slam force.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Missing a key card you would not ask for Kings ... specific or otherwise .

[barsikb]

eagles123, I like your auction! Even playing SAYC, this will work fine and solve my problem (how to check keycards in ♠)

and I agree not easy to decide on slam but having a good second suit helps, right?

TylerE, like your 1M-3NT, too. Is this a part of some convention? We are not using that 3NT bid over 1M otherwise anyway, right?

[TylerE]

I don't really think it has a name, but at least in my area it's not uncommon, at least in my area. Also not unusual to see it played as 15-17 with exactly two trumps. It's a big jump, and it's not exactly a bid I plan to win IMPs on, but I do really like the hands it removes from other sequences, since you're faking a 2m response less often.

[Cyberyeti]

6♦ by N has 12 tricks without the A♥ onside, that is the slam you want to be in (certainly at teams), 6♠ is worse.

1♠-2♦
3♦

is perfectly fine, but why rush. What happens next depends on whether 2♦ was FG or not.

There is also a big problem with Blackwood in diamonds as the 5♥ response causes potential issues, this is why many experts will use 4♥ to ace ask.

[shnk]

How about 3S instead of 4NT? I generally play 2/1 but surely this bid is forcing in SAYC? Then you've established a double fit with room for control showing and there are 6 keycards for RKCB.

I play that directly supporting responder's minor after a 2/1 shows more than minimum -- a sound 14+ points or so, so I'd just rebid spades as opener but I guess that promises six spades in many methods.

[mikeh]

My advice is that N should not be in such a rush to take control.

The OP's question shows very clearly why rushing into keycard is so bad. How does responder know what to do?

How would the auction have gone any differently if S had Qxxxx Qx Kxxx AQ?

Still a 1♠ opener and what else other than a raise of diamonds?

Now slam is very much against the odds. We need to avoid a trump loser (odds-on that we can do this) and a spade loser (odds very much that we can't do this).

All bridge players need to understand that they should, before asking for keycards, consider whether they will know what to do over all plausible responses.

If one concludes that a normal response would leave one with an insoluble problem, then STOP. Don't ask for keycard: think about alternatives.

Here, we have an easy alternative. Bid 3♠. This is forcing even if not playing 2/1 gf.

Now, it is naïve to think that all of our problems are solved by this, but 3♠, rather than 4♠, suggests slam interest.

Opener should look at his cards in the context of the auction. He has the KQ spades...clearly useful compared to, say, Kxxxx or Qxxxx, and he has Kxxx in diamonds, again a useful holding. He has the club A and some ruffing values. So with 4 'working cards' and no wastage his hand is actually pretty good compared to other 12 counts he could hold. He can't go driving to slam himself, but he can and should make the mildly encouraging call of 4♣, showing a non-horrible hand in context.

Responder can now keycard if he chooses, because while he will still not be sure of what is going on, he can reason that partner has a non-horrible hand. With the ugly 13 count I gave above, with Qxxxx in spades, opener should simply bid 4♠ over 3♠, to deny any interest in a cooperative slam auction, warned off by his appalling spade suit.

In fact, some very practiced pairs with good agreements play 6 card keycard when two suits have been bid and raised, precisely because of the problem that exists in this hand. Note that this 6 card keycard approach requires that spades have been raised: S is not a mind-reader and so would make a simple 5 keycard response to 4N over 3♦.

Given that this is the N/B forum I am not going any further: I do not think that a N/B player should even attempt 6 card keycard until far more comfortable with more basic concepts, such as not rushing to keycard, and allowing for co-operative bidding rather than quickly taking charge when unable to cope with predictable responses from partner. I only mention it to let the OP know that the problem he experienced is legitimate even if he goes more slowly and that as he advances in his experience and knowledge, he may be able to adopt more specialized (and disaster-prone) devices.

[wank]

you use rkcb to check you're not off 2 aces. you use cue bids and bidding judgment to decide if you have 12 tricks.

[Zelandakh]

There are 2 questions here. The first is on how to bid the hand. That seems to have been handled by the early responses - basically you should not launch RKCB when you do not have the necessary information to make an intelligent decision and do have a good alternative. The second question relates to how you find out about a side king and queen after getting a response to RKCB. The answer to this is definitely not N/B material, indeed probably not intermediate either. However, with that caveat, it can be done by using the bid of a new suit by the Asker (known as a Specific Suit Ask or SSA). This is usually played as a grand slam try with all key cards and the trump queen accounted for. There are several possible response schemes - in the most common, partner raises to 7 of the agreed suit with KQ in the side suit.

This is generally an area I would suggest you avoid for the time being; just be aware that there are some answers around for later on. Even for edvanced players, this is not something that should be done without explicit agreements with partner. Mike's suggestion of 6KCB is another (good) way of handling hands of this type but that is (arguably) even more advanced than the SSAs so my advice is to steer clear of that one completely.

[PhilKing]

 barsikb, on 2013-July-17, 10:31, said:

eagles123, I like your auction! Even playing SAYC, this will work fine and solve my problem (how to check keycards in ♠)

I won't argue too much with punting slam on the North hand once you find a double fit, since it is likely to have some play. However, there is nothing to like about choosing to play in 6♠ other than that the heart ace happens to be onside.

All things being equal, it is proper to play in the 4-4 fit rather than the 5-3 fit, since your side losers can now be discarded on the five-card suit. This is pretty much a "golden rule" in that it can sometimes be ignored, but only rarely.

[Free]

When finding a double fit while you're in the slam zone, you should try to play in a 4-4 fit rather than a 5-3 fit, because you can discard losers on the long suit or ruff with one of the 4 card suits. If north takes control, he should also prefer to play himself rather than wrongsiding the contract because of his ♥K. To find that out, you need to start cuebids (preferably with serious/frivolous 3NT to show if you're minimum). That's why I find Eagles123's auction quite poor, and I even wonder if we'd get the same auction when ♥A would be offside. Granted, it's not a complete DD auction, otherwise he'd play 6NT...

Personally I prefer to respond 2♣ with the North hand, which doesn't help us at all on this deal. It wrongsides a possible ♦ contract.

[Cyberyeti]

 Free, on 2013-July-18, 03:51, said:

When finding a double fit while you're in the slam zone, you should try to play in a 4-4 fit rather than a 5-3 fit, because you can discard losers on the long suit or ruff with one of the 4 card suits. If north takes control, he should also prefer to play himself rather than wrongsiding the contract because of his ♥K. To find that out, you need to start cuebids (preferably with serious/frivolous 3NT to show if you're minimum). That's why I find Eagles123's auction quite poor, and I even wonder if we'd get the same auction when ♥A would be offside. Granted, it's not a complete DD auction, otherwise he'd play 6NT...

Personally I prefer to respond 2♣ with the North hand, which doesn't help us at all on this deal. It wrongsides a possible ♦ contract.

Caveat - play in the 4-4 fit if you have the Q of the 4-4 suit and you don't have tricks to spare. It's really embarrassing to play in xxxx/AKxx and find either that they were 4-1 or that you have a loser there and another loser, but had 12 tricks in the solid 5-3 or NT.

[barsikb]

Thank you for the answers!

Mikeh: "Bid 3♠. This is forcing even if not playing 2/1 gf." Yes playing SAYC. 2D is 10+, forcing, but not GF.
Is it possible to use Bergen if playing SAYC? In that case in 1S-2D-3D-3S sequence 3S could be with 10-bad 12, no?

[barsikb]

still confused about 4-4 VS 5-3

I know that if both fits are majors, 4-4 shd become trump. Still the same even if 4-4 is a minor and 5-3 is a major?

[ArtK78]

 barsikb, on 2013-July-19, 08:26, said:

still confused about 4-4 VS 5-3

I know that if both fits are majors, 4-4 shd become trump. Still the same even if 4-4 is a minor and 5-3 is a major?

The extra points for bidding a major suit slam as opposed to a minor suit slam is only relevant at matchpoints. Still, an effort should be made to get to the better slam, especially if you do not believe others will get to slam at all.

At IMPs, the extra 2 IMPs for +980 as opposed to +920 (or +1430 vs. +1370) should be ignored.

The easiest way to answer the question is to look at the hand. How often will 6♦ make and how often will 6♠ make? To make 6♠, you need spades to break no worse than 4-1 and you need the ♥A onside. You also need to have no diamond losers. The ♥A will be onside 50% of the time, and spades will break 5-0 a small percentage of the time. There is also a small chance that the diamonds will have a loser (or that there will be an opening diamond ruff). So, the chances of making 6♠ are less than 50%.

How about 6♦ played by North? You need reasonable breaks in both spades and diamonds. If diamonds are 3-2 and spades are no worse than 4-1, you don't need the ♥A onside! You have 12 tricks - 5 spades, 5 diamonds (3 top diamonds and a ruff in each hand - you throw 2 of North's hearts away on the long spades) and 2 clubs. And, even if you get bad breaks in spades and/or diamonds, you can still make 6♦ most of the time if the ♥A is onside (there are some chances that the opps will lead a singleton spade and will get a spade ruff on winning the ♥A - unlucky). This latter chance comes in on this hand - on a black suit lead, declarer pulls 2 rounds of trumps. On finding the 4-1 diamond break, declarer must lead a heart towards the K to get a 12th trick. After the ♥A is found onside, declarer can win any return, pull trump and claim 12 tricks - 4 diamonds, 5 spades, a heart and 2 clubs (no club ruff needed).

And, in 6♦ by North, if they lead a heart, the ♥K is protected since North is the declarer (assuming they don't have a heart ruff - very unlikely).

Clearly, the chances of making 6♦ are much better than 50%.

I would guess that getting to 6♦ making would score very well in any matchpoint event, even if the ♥A were onside. And if I were playing IMPs and I lost 2 IMPs because my partner and I bid 6♦ and the other side got to 6♠ making, I would consider it unlucky.

The bottom line is that when you have a choice between bidding a slam in a good 4-4 fit as opposed to a good 5-3 fit, the 4-4 fit will often produce more tricks since losers can be disposed of on the run of the 5 card suit. At worst, you break even. There may be some rare exceptions, but this is a good rule of thumb.

[barsikb]

ArtK78, thank you for your great detailed answer! Very helpful.

[Free]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-July-18, 05:05, said:

Caveat - play in the 4-4 fit if you have the Q of the 4-4 suit and you don't have tricks to spare. It's really embarrassing to play in xxxx/AKxx and find either that they were 4-1 or that you have a loser there and another loser, but had 12 tricks in the solid 5-3 or NT.

That's only a valid point when you're missing a keycard and captain doesn't hold the Q. Here North is captain, holding ♦Q himself.

[Wackojack]

 barsikb, on 2013-July-19, 08:22, said:

Thank you for the answers!

Mikeh: "Bid 3♠. This is forcing even if not playing 2/1 gf." Yes playing SAYC. 2D is 10+, forcing, but not GF.
Is it possible to use Bergen if playing SAYC? In that case in 1S-2D-3D-3S sequence 3S could be with 10-bad 12, no?

A small point not already covered: I think that in SAYC or (equivalent) that a 2♦ response would show a hand that is worth 11 points. So possible 10 with a good 5 card suit. If you bid 3♠ after 1♠-2♦-3♦-3♠ you have found a double fit and even with a minimum 2 over 1 response opposite a minimum opening bid, game is still likely. Give responder say: ♠Jxx; ♥Qxx, ♦AJxx, ♣Kxx. That is 11 points where 2 of them (Q♥) are wasted. You can see that 4♠ is still a reasonable prospect.
That is why 3S should be treated as forcing.

There is a Bergen style response 1♠-3♦ to show 10-12 points and exactly 3 spades, which helps with some auctions but I don't think that is relavent in a B/I forum.