[benlessard]

Quote

The down side of a 3s cue bid followed by 4h (assuming p does not rebid 4h) is how
does one show a heart raise with and w/o a spade control if it is being used to show
both. Also why would 3s have to be a heart support cue rather than an attempt to
play 3n??

With a good H raise bidding 3S allow you to stop in 4H easily, while making a 4D (cue or natural) will often lead you to 5m for no reason. So this is the main reason why 4D is totally natural and cannot show H support and 3S is two-way.

[cherdano]

Winstonm, on 2013-July-12, 15:16, said:

Yes, I mean level of slam, small or grand. On that, we need partner's input about quality of trumps.

As to the latter, it simply makes little sense to reverse without extra values, even under these conditions because it consumes so my room for preference. If partner is minimum, Qx, xx, KQxx, KQxxx, I would much prefer 3S over 3H or even 4C - just not 4D. If partner were interested in diamonds, he can bid 4D over 4C or 3S.

Eeeek. I didn't suggest to bid 4D on a balanced hand!

[MinorKid]

Vampyr, on 2013-July-12, 10:34, said:

What would partner have bid with a weaker hand? We have, after all, forced to game; it seems unreasonable for partner not to be able to show his second suit along the way.

IMO, The kind of hand you mentioned is likely to be sort of xxx - KQJx KQJxxx which can be rebid 4♣, awaiting your 4♦ response in case of ♦ fit.
Rebidding 4♦ need a bit of extra as it is forcing to 5m.

If your partner opens 1♣ for xx xx KQJx KQJxx and 1♣ {2♠} 3♥ {Pass} 4♦ doesn't promise anything extra, I recommend responder strictly bidding 6♣ and hope for an ace.

[PhilKing]

MinorKid, on 2013-July-12, 20:56, said:

Rebidding 4♦ need a bit of extra as it is forcing to 5m.

I was wondering if anyone would bring up this issue.

I am all in favour of being able to stop in 4m occasionally when we are unable to make 3NT or 4M, but I don't think this is an auction (1♣-2♠-3♥) we can sensibly apply the brakes without losing a lot of definition.

[MinorKid]

PhilKing, on 2013-July-13, 03:35, said:

I was wondering if anyone would bring up this issue.

I am all in favour of being able to stop in 4m occasionally when we are unable to make 3NT or 4M, but I don't think this is an auction (1♣-2♠-3♥) we can sensibly apply the brakes without losing a lot of definition.

I am afraid I cannot totally agree. 4♦ should at least shows extra as:
1. The auction have been game forcing since 3♥.
2. If partner prefer ♣ than ♦...

[PhilKing]

MinorKid, on 2013-July-13, 04:41, said:

I am afraid I cannot totally agree. 4♦ should at least shows extra as:
1. The auction have been game forcing since 3♥.
2. If partner prefer ♣ than ♦...

I would recommend rereading the previous three posts.

[B Meow]

I agree MinorKid in some way but not all.

I agree his "reverse" should show real reverse value. It is pushing the bidding to 5 facing a 12-count. 28-12=16, which is simular to normal reverse value like 1♣-1♥-2♦.

As for the 4♠ cue bid i totally agree, showing control. Through it literally agree ♦ but p can assume it to be ♣ to allow room for correction. On top of that, 4N over 4♠ can now be blackwood(♣) (Or "six card RKCB" if you play that).

I cannot totally agree MinorKid's raise of 5♣♦ to 6♣ or 6♣♦ to 7♣.
First of all there are no natural reasons for opener blasting to 5♦, 6♦.
Secondly respoder's has no honor support on any of Opener's suits. Given that opener has full control of the suit quality it is wise to hand the judgement over to opener.
Thirdly, responder had shown a GF hand, spade control, heart suit with his suit probabily wasted there's nothing more to tell.
Lastly, one cannot always assure the Red Preempter has ♠KQJxxx. Many players nowadays would preempt in red with ♠KJxxxx nothing and give opener some wasted value.

[B Meow]

PhilKing, on 2013-July-13, 03:35, said:

I was wondering if anyone would bring up this issue.

I am all in favour of being able to stop in 4m occasionally when we are unable to make 3NT or 4M, but I don't think this is an auction (1♣-2♠-3♥) we can sensibly apply the brakes without losing a lot of definition.

I think it is pretty obvious that 4♦ over 3♥ is forcing. Maybe there needs some discussion about 4♣ over 3♥.

[cherdano]

B Meow, on 2013-July-14, 01:14, said:

I think it is pretty obvious that 4♦ over 3♥ is forcing. Maybe there needs some discussion about 4♣ over 3♥.

Part of Phil's point was that 4♣ has to be forcing in such a cramped auction. I strongly agree.

[FrancesHinden]

Quote

Rebidding 4♦ need a bit of extra as it is forcing to 5m.

Technically it isn't. You can pass responder's 4H bid over 4D.

[B Meow]

I am thinking two worst case situations here on what sort of opener's hand could be disasterous for slam.

(1) Sort of hands that was planned to bid 1♣-1M-2♣. For example, xxx x KQJx KQJxx.

(2) Sort of hands that has reverse strength to be bid 1♣-1M-2♦ with too much wastes on ♠. For example, KJx - KQJxx KQJxx.

The occurance of (1) depends on your bidding style.
If you usually response to the opening suit up to line(i.e. with 4x♦-4x♥ you response 1♦ to 1♣), then the possibility of hand (1) coming out is high. Your partner would opt to open 1♣ with the example hand. On the other hand, Some partners would had avoided this kind of trouble playing "New Minor Artificial Forcing" OR "Responde any 4-card Major" style since they would had opened 1♦ instead to avoid awarkward situations like 1♣-1M-2♣-2♦*.

* Artificial

The next issue is to discuss wheather this kind of 4D-5C hands are capable for bidding 4♦. There are a lot of bidding style to discuss. If you normally play "2 over 1 GF style" then probabity 4♦ would show little extra because there are no "FAST ARRIVAL" options to show minimum yet. Cue-Bidding would show extra in this case. If you usually don't play "2/1 GF" then your partner would had considered 4♦ a bit "out of the safety line" and hence shows extra strength and hence will try 3♠^ / 4♣ wit the example hand.

^ 3♠ Two Way: Opener ask for stopper. If opener carries on it would be slam investigating.

The occurance of (2) depends on partnership judgement. After
1♣ {2♠} 3♥ - (Heart Suit)
4♦ - 4♠* - (Spade A)

With xxx x KQJx KQJxx OR KJx - KQJxx KQJxx
Should be bid 5♣ to allow you Sign-Off.

With xxx x AKxx AKxxx OR xx - AQJxx AQxxxx
Should be bid 6♣ to allow you Sign-Off.

With xxx x AKQx AKQxx OR xx - AKQxx AKQxxx
Should be bid 7♣ to allow you Sign-Off / Correct to 7NT.

[Winstonm]

How and what you open makes all the difference in how you respond to the OP.

[PhilKing]

B Meow, on 2013-July-16, 07:55, said:

I am thinking two worst case situations here on what sort of opener's hand could be disasterous for slam.

(1) Sort of hands that was planned to bid 1♣-1M-2♣. For example, xxx x KQJx KQJxx.

(2) Sort of hands that has reverse strength to be bid 1♣-1M-2♦ with too much wastes on ♠. For example, KJx - KQJxx KQJxx.

The occurance of (1) depends on your bidding style.
If you usually response to the opening suit up to line(i.e. with 4x♦-4x♥ you response 1♦ to 1♣), then the possibility of hand (1) coming out is high. Your partner would opt to open 1♣ with the example hand. On the other hand, Some partners would had avoided this kind of trouble playing "New Minor Artificial Forcing" OR "Responde any 4-card Major" style since they would had opened 1♦ instead to avoid awarkward situations like 1♣-1M-2♣-2♦*.

* Artificial

The next issue is to discuss wheather this kind of 4D-5C hands are capable for bidding 4♦. There are a lot of bidding style to discuss. If you normally play "2 over 1 GF style" then probabity 4♦ would show little extra because there are no "FAST ARRIVAL" options to show minimum yet. Cue-Bidding would show extra in this case. If you usually don't play "2/1 GF" then your partner would had considered 4♦ a bit "out of the safety line" and hence shows extra strength and hence will try 3♠^ / 4♣ wit the example hand.

^ 3♠ Two Way: Opener ask for stopper. If opener carries on it would be slam investigating.

The occurance of (2) depends on partnership judgement. After
1♣ {2♠} 3♥ - (Heart Suit)
4♦ - 4♠* - (Spade A)

With KJx - KQJxx KQJxx
He will surely bid 5♣ to allow you Sign-Off / Correct 5♦.

Hand one bids 3♠ over 3♥.

Hand two opens 1♦ unless they have missorted their hand, in which case they can bid 3NT now.

[B Meow]

So far it seems all agreed 4♠ cue bid.

After:
1♣ {2♠} 3♥ - (Heart Suit)
4♦ - 4♠* - (Spade A)

I am just thinkng of the opener's use of 4NT / 5♠ / 5NT / 6♠ to describe two suiters at least 5-5.
Leaving 5♣ / 6♣ / 7♣ to describe opener's hands with only 4-card diamonds.

[Hanoi5]

When I was first presented the problem I just bid 5♣. But the hand has too many controls and a good fit so I was wondering what was the best route. Clearly 4♠ is the right call, the question then is, how should opener continue?

♠x
♥x
♦AKQJT
♣AQTxxx

Six is on, but seven isn't. 4NT is KC? In what suit?

[Free]

4NT should be 6 card RKC here, since it's unclear in which suit partner wants to play (4♦ already showed a 6-5 imo). After Blacky, opener just bids 6♣ and responder passes or converts to 6♦.

[gnasher]

Hanoi5, on 2013-July-17, 07:05, said:

When I was first presented the problem I just bid 5♣. But the hand has too many controls and a good fit so I was wondering what was the best route. Clearly 4♠ is the right call, the question then is, how should opener continue?

Mike's idea of playing 4NT as asking what trumps are would work well here. Opener could bid 4NT, find out that clubs are trumps, then use his favourite artificial method to find out about the aces and ♣K.

Back in the real world of imperfect agreements, I think 4NT is straight Blackwood. Opener might bid that, then continue with 5NT to show all the aces and invite responder to choose a level whilst simultaneously revealing the trump suit. Responder would bid only 6♣ at this point, because he has nothing that he hasn't already shown.

[MinorKid]

Hanoi5, on 2013-July-17, 07:05, said:

When I was first presented the problem I just bid 5♣. But the hand has too many controls and a good fit so I was wondering what was the best route. Clearly 4♠ is the right call, the question then is, how should opener continue?

♠x
♥x
♦AKQJT
♣AQTxxx

Six is on, but seven isn't. 4NT is KC? In what suit?

Good question.

I prefer 4NT to be RKCB rather than "Pick a minor.". Through "Pick a minor" has its advantage on some hands, like responder's 3-card♦ and 1~2-card♣. However playing 5-2 isn't a big disaster here so i'd stick to RKCB.

RKCB players would not change to play Simple Blackwood in this situation.

IF 4NT is RKCB, which i prefer to be.

Two options
1. Having mutual assumption of one suit , responder bid out the number according that assumed suit , opener then continue with 5NT or bid ?♣, which would be to be corrected to ?♦ by responder.
2. Apply "six card RCKB" then opener bid ?♣, which would be to be corrected to ?♦ by responder.

IF 4NT is NOT RKCB.

Responder pick a minor at the level of combined strength facing minimum 1♣ 4♦.

[MinorKid]

One thing i have to add is that with the opener's hand

Question like this would had been appeared on post #1

They're red, we're white:

♠A8
♥AKT9x
♦8x
♣9xxx

1♣-(2♠)-3♥-(4♠)
5♦-(Pa)-???

MP's