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Psych or not

Poll: Psych or not (27 member(s) have cast votes)

Is the double:

  1. Insane? (6 votes [22.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.22%

  2. A psych? (3 votes [11.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  3. Not a psych? (18 votes [66.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

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#1 User is offline   BillHiggin 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 04:04


You must know the rules well - so that you may break them wisely!
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#2 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 05:50

Of course this is a psyche. But it is not insane. The doubler heard the auction - the opps struggled to get to 4 and appear to be in a 4-4 fit. The doubler assumes that the opponents have minimal game values and knows that spades are not breaking. He doubles to mislead the declarer about the lie of the cards.
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#3 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 05:53

I used to do this sort of thing (doubling on partner's "known" length and values) quite a lot as a junior - not so much these days.
(-: Zel :-)
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#4 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 06:40

Why would it be a psych? Double does not promise or deny anything, except that the doubler thinks that defending 4Sx is a better idea than defending 4S.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#5 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 06:42

I can't even call it a psyche. Double says: I think we can set this. It does not say: I hold anything in particular.
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
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#6 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 09:27

View Postbillw55, on 2013-July-03, 06:42, said:

I can't even call it a psyche. Double says: I think we can set this. It does not say: I hold anything in particular.

What do you want to call it? A tactical call?

Yes, the double is merely an expression of the doubler's belief that 4 is going to fail, and I agree that the double of 4 does not promise trick taking ability. If you wanted to be technical about it, the double doesn't say anything at all - it merely increases the undertrick penalty for a failed contract and increases the score for making the contract and for overtricks. But I am sure that everyone and his grandmother would believe that the doubler is basing the double on his own trick taking ability rather than his partner's presumed trick taking ability. It would be naive to say that anyone would not expect the hand that doubled to be far different in strength and/or shape than this hand. In that sense it is a psyche - a gross misrepresentation of his strength and/or shape.

If the contract fails, and the reason for the failure was that declarer was dissuaded from taking a winning line because of the double, I will give the doubler a standing ovation. But it is still a psyche.
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#7 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 09:47

View PostArtK78, on 2013-July-03, 09:27, said:

What do you want to call it? A tactical call?

Yes, the double is merely an expression of the doubler's belief that 4 is going to fail, and I agree that the double of 4 does not promise trick taking ability. If you wanted to be technical about it, the double doesn't say anything at all - it merely increases the undertrick penalty for a failed contract and increases the score for making the contract and for overtricks. But I am sure that everyone and his grandmother would believe that the doubler is basing the double on his own trick taking ability rather than his partner's presumed trick taking ability. It would be naive to say that anyone would not expect the hand that doubled to be far different in strength and/or shape than this hand. In that sense it is a psyche - a gross misrepresentation of his strength and/or shape.

If the contract fails, and the reason for the failure was that declarer was dissuaded from taking a winning line because of the double, I will give the doubler a standing ovation. But it is still a psyche.

And if declarer asks the partner of the doubler what the double shows, what do you think the answer will be? That it promises thus-and-such many points, or so-and-so many trump tricks? I rather think it will be simply, he thinks we can beat it. Anything else that declarer chooses to believe is his problem. I would bet that precious few pairs will have an agreement about the content of such a double.

Furthermore, I would expect most advanced players to understand things like auction clues, planned defenses, favorable position of cards, etc, which can lead to inferential penalty doubles. Those who wait to have a contract cold down in their own hand don't double enough.
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#8 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 11:18

This is quite common after invitational sequences. You know partner has around 15HCP and he'll have 3-4 trumps. Your Dbl creates the impression that you have values, but all it says is that you think you'll defeat the contract. Moreover, by doubling you probably improve your chances of defeating the contract because declarer may misplay the hand completely.

No it's not a psych, no it's not insane, if you want to label it I'd probably describe it as a tactical call.
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#9 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 11:32

I don't think its a good call - if I'm reading the auction right, then all of our sides points are sitting in front of 2/3 of their sides points - but it certainly can work very well, and its definitely not a psyche, since you have no agreement to deviate from other than that you think you will get a better score by doubling 4.

I do agree that the call is deceptive, but I do not think deceptive and psyche are synonymous - I'd treat this more like a falsecard in the play.
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#10 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 11:34

Not a psyche. The double doesn't advertise anything about the hand. Declarer should consider a layout like this before his play.
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#11 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 12:06

View PostCSGibson, on 2013-July-03, 11:32, said:

I do agree that the call is deceptive, but I do not think deceptive and psyche are synonymous - I'd treat this more like a falsecard in the play.

An excellent way to put it IMO.
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#12 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 12:24

Psyches are deceptive, but not all deceptive calls are psyches.

#13 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 12:30

View Postbillw55, on 2013-July-03, 12:06, said:

An excellent way to put it IMO.

I think it's even less than a falsecard, since there is a partnership agreement on what high-low (say) means in play but there is no partnership agreement on what this double means.
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#14 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2013-July-03, 13:20

I would like to vote for D): "The correct call assuming decent opponents".

Rik
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#15 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2013-July-04, 12:28

View PostBillHiggin, on 2013-July-03, 04:04, said:



Seems like you created quite a stir here. Post the full hand and the result for us.
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#16 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2013-July-04, 12:55

View PostBillHiggin, on 2013-July-03, 04:04, said:

Cunning! Probably not a psych but depends on your partnership understandings :)
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#17 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2013-July-04, 13:41

View Post32519, on 2013-July-04, 12:28, said:

Seems like you created quite a stir here. Post the full hand and the result for us.

Why??? What makes you think that there was a full hand to begin with and what would it have to do with anything anyway? Was your account infected by a virus demanding for the full hand in every possible thread?
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#18 User is offline   BillHiggin 

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Posted 2013-July-04, 13:59

View Post32519, on 2013-July-04, 12:28, said:

Seems like you created quite a stir here. Post the full hand and the result for us.

I do not have a record of the full hand! It seems that most replies here are very close to my own thinking.
One extra fact that is of some relevance - my partner was clearly the weakest player at the table, and I thought it quite likely that either a BIT or double by him might provide declarer with the insight to make the hand (followed by thinking "well, if you are going to read that much into his double, deal with mine instead :) ).

Since I do not have the hand record, I cannot say whether there was a legitimate or even long shot chance at making. Declarer did take hook, line and sinker. Declarer even refused a winning finesse, electing to try to end play me (with that fine hand, I was able to avoid being thrown in :) ). The final result of down 3 certainly suggests that something other than the best line of play was employed. Declarer did immediately express the opinion that option A was appropriate!
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#19 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2013-July-04, 16:37

Was this a BBO hand? I find BBO players tend to label any action that they don't understand, is unusual or unexpected and gets a good result, a psyche.
Then they call the director and have a good chance of having the board adjusted.
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#20 User is offline   BillHiggin 

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Posted 2013-July-04, 17:11

View Postjillybean, on 2013-July-04, 16:37, said:

Was this a BBO hand? I find BBO players tend to label any action that they don't understand, is unusual or unexpected and gets a good result, a psyche.
Then they call the director and have a good chance of having the board adjusted.

No, it was played on another site.
There was nothing at stake, so no real accusations were made other than the suggestion that I seek help for mental conditions (and all in fun).

Actually, I have wondered what would happen in one of the "psych free" torneys, but the majority of the participants in this forum are probably not inclined to that sort of restriction anyway.
You must know the rules well - so that you may break them wisely!
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