[el mister]

Playing 2/1 GF, Jacoby 2NT and splinters. Say you have 12+ and 4 card+ support for partner's opening bid of 1M. What sort of hand type would you hold to bid 2 of another suit, ie not show the fit immediately and not bid J 2NT, splinter etc. Say 1♠ - 2♦, or 1♠- 2 ♥. If you hold 4♠s here as a responder, what sort of holding might these bids indicate?

I guess another way of asking the question is what sort of game-force hand, with a major suit fit and no singleton / void, does NOT want to go through J2NT.

[fromageGB]

I don't have any such holdings. I will always start with 1♠ 2NT (13+) and take it from there. We then show shortages and strength, so whatever holding I have should put me in a reasonable position to explore slam.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

This topic comes up quite frequently it seems .

KenRexford for one uses a Multi-type 2C! ( 2/1 GF ) over a 1M opening = Clubs and/or 3+ support. Ken says: " I tend to like 2/1 GF sequences when a splinter or Jacoby 2NT is imperfect."

An advantage is to keep the bidding low for possible slam exploration.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
One problem I have with it is that it is difficult to convince opener that you have more than 3 card support.

And for the auction:
1S - 2H
3H - 3S now is a Ctrl cuebid agreeing ♥ as trump.... not a double-fit .

[WGF_Flame]

It depends on your Jacoby continuations, but in general i think any hand with 5 card suit added by 2 of the 3 honors should bid the suit and not Jacoby.
I don't say only these hand types.

[aguahombre]

I think 2/1 pairs who don't use 2/1 with decent 5-card side suits and 4M are missing out. Responder should use bids to describe what will be the dummy, rather than elicit information about opener's hand when possible.

So, we have:

2x, then a jump to 4M as a picture (say, KQXX XX AKJXX XX).
2X, then a jump to 3M as a strong one (say, KQXX AX AKJxx XX)
2X, then new suit, then support when too strong to splinter.

[fromageGB]

aguahombre, on 2013-March-27, 09:22, said:

I think 2/1 pairs who don't use 2/1 with decent 5-card side suits and 4M are missing out. Responder should use bids to describe what will be the dummy, rather than elicit information about opener's hand when possible.

On the other hand, while it is nice in theory to have an unknown hand as declarer, if it starts with 2NT it is responder who has the outside length and will be able to count to 13 potential tricks, so he is the one who is better positioned to make the decision.

If responder can describe his length via a 2/1 and still get opener to know about the 4 card support, then fair enough. As opener, I would assume a delayed spade bid is just preference, and nothing to get excited about. Edit - after 1♠ 2♥ 2NT, it is difficult to jump to 3♠.

[aguahombre]

fromageGB, on 2013-March-27, 09:31, said:

Edit - after 1♠ 2♥ 2NT, it is difficult to jump to 3♠.

True, but the 3S bid won't be construed as doubt about trump and opener can proceed as if responder has the strong one even if he doesn't have that. The 2NT rebid itself (in my world) is already specific as to shape with 11-14 or 18-19. With the normal minimum range opener just goes along with the program. With the biggie, opener will wait until responder is finished and then continue.

[fromageGB]

OK, you may have meanings about 2NT (mine is the inverse of yours, showing 15/16). I use a rebid of the opening suit, 2♠, for 12-14 and 17+. But the point remains that 3♠ is not a jump, and while opener knows spades are trumps, he won't imagine it is 4 card. You can only jump in the rare cases where your suit is at least 2 beneath his, and opener is 2 suited with the intermediate one.

I suppose opener with 12-14 would then bid 3NT non-serious after 1♠ 2♦ 2♠ 3♠, and responder can start action with a serious cue bid, but it is tricky to get opener to take control. You are probably better off starting with 2NT. At least that way you have the advantage of knowing if opener has a shortage before you get to this point (depending on your Jacoby methods), and with your "9 cards in the 2 suits" hand, this could be very important.

2NT also avoids two4bridge's problem hand.

[el mister]

Thanks for the replies. I'm new to 2/1 so it sounds like I should go through 2NT in the first instance for simplicity, then consider other responses once I have more experience with seeing how J2NT continuations play out / see the hand types that are troublesome with it.

[fromageGB]

If your just starting with the 2NT bid GF 4+ support, the thing to do is work out what you should be bidding next. There's no point in having all that space unless you are going to use it effectively. List what the useful things would be for either partner to know about the other's hand, such as strength rage, singleton/voids or not, good side suits, trump length, etc, and put them into some priority order. One bid may combine 2 elements. Decide if you are going to have an equilateral discussion, or if the description is going to be of just one hand.

There are different ideas on what happens after 2NT, and some are better than others. Plan your priorities.

[HeartA]

el mister, on 2013-March-27, 03:55, said:

Playing 2/1 GF, Jacoby 2NT and splinters. Say you have 12+ and 4 card+ support for partner's opening bid of 1M. What sort of hand type would you hold to bid 2 of another suit, ie not show the fit immediately and not bid J 2NT, splinter etc. Say 1♠ - 2♦, or 1♠- 2 ♥. If you hold 4♠s here as a responder, what sort of holding might these bids indicate?

I guess another way of asking the question is what sort of game-force hand, with a major suit fit and no singleton / void, does NOT want to go through J2NT.

A suit of 5 or 6 (if 6, exactly 3-card support for pd's suit) cards, missing at most one honor. For example: ♠AQJxx, ♥KJxx, ♦Ax, ♣xx, after pd's 1♥ opening. If pd has 2nd round control on ♣, ♥A (even ♥Q is missing), ♠K, a slam is almost certain.

Even with a singleton, sometimes I prefer to show double fit than shortness. If double fit is confirmed, we can then use double-suit RKC.

[the hog]

el mister, on 2013-March-27, 03:55, said:

Playing 2/1 GF, Jacoby 2NT and splinters. Say you have 12+ and 4 card+ support for partner's opening bid of 1M. What sort of hand type would you hold to bid 2 of another suit, ie not show the fit immediately and not bid J 2NT, splinter etc. Say 1♠ - 2♦, or 1♠- 2 ♥. If you hold 4♠s here as a responder, what sort of holding might these bids indicate?

I guess another way of asking the question is what sort of game-force hand, with a major suit fit and no singleton / void, does NOT want to go through J2NT.

Over 1S eg

KJxx
xx
xx
AKJxx

I would of course bid 2C followed by a 4S picture bid. I think bidding 2NT on such a hand is laughable.

[Free]

Jacoby is good enough for most hands, but when you have a source of tricks (good 5+ card suit) I prefer to start with 2/1. Basically you tell partner that you have concentrated values in that suit and trumps, but probably nothing much aside.