[blackshoe]

Vampyr, on 2013-February-19, 14:25, said:

If you didn't expect partner to bid, then you thought the auction was over, so it not unreasonable to be studying your hand while thinking about your opening lead. Your RHO's picking up his bidding cards is now proof that the auction is over. I really don't blame the opening leader for failing to revisit the bidding cards on the table; would anyone actually think it is his turn to bid when RHO has already removed his bidding cards?

Generally speaking, during a live auction I think about the auction. Not being entirely senile yet, I am usually aware of the state of the auction - such as whose turn it is to call, and whether there have been three passes. I can see becoming distracted by something — usually something outside the game, but yes, even "what am I going to lead?" but it hasn't happened yet. Even if I don't expect partner (or somebody else) to bid or double, I look at his call, I don't just assume it. Maybe that's just me.

I recognize that there are people who can't hold more than one thought in their heads at a time, who are easily distracted, who make assumptions about what's going on around them instead of observing, but frankly I do not understand those people, and I don't have a lot of sympathy for them in playing a game.

[blackshoe]

Fluffy, on 2013-February-19, 05:30, said:

In Spain the main problem to follw the rules is that:

-Nobody follows them (for example stop regulations and 'may I look againt on previous trick?')
-Almost nobody knows them, even many directors have forgotten many of them. The fact they change so often (what is alerted and what not for exmple) is partially responsible of this.

I sometimes feel like I should go to local clubs and play following all rules calling director when the tinniest one is broken, but I would just become so impopular I think, and director would hate me

If nobody follows the rules, there aren't any rules. Do whatever you like.

[lalldonn]

Vampyr, on 2013-February-19, 14:25, said:

If you didn't expect partner to bid, then you thought the auction was over, so it not unreasonable to be studying your hand while thinking about your opening lead. Your RHO's picking up his bidding cards is now proof that the auction is over. I really don't blame the opening leader for failing to revisit the bidding cards on the table; would anyone actually think it is his turn to bid when RHO has already removed his bidding cards?

"Studying your hand" doesn't mean not noticing bids made in the auction. And yes, everyone would notice it's their turn to bid even though RHO removed the bidding cards because they would see their partner doubled first! What blackshoe said in post 61, +100

sfi, on 2013-February-19, 14:42, said:

A major difference is that the situation you describe is specifically addressed in the laws (54A). Dummy becomes declarer and there are no other options.

This is covered in the laws too, of course. When RHO picks up his cards you say "the auction isn't over yet, I still have another turn coming" because the laws say the auction is not over until there are three passes. I still don't see any substantive difference between my example and what actually happened. In both cases the player didn't exercise the legal rectification they intended because they weren't paying attention, in one case by putting their hand down as the dummy, in the other by picking up their cards and making the opening lead.

[Vampyr]

lalldonn, on 2013-February-19, 15:50, said:

When RHO picks up his cards you say "the auction isn't over yet, I still have another turn coming" because the laws say the auction is not over until there are three passes.

Or the doubler could, as sfi notes, have mentioned that there were still two players who had a bid coming. It certainly would have saved a lot of trouble if one of the attentive people had stopped declarer (who maybe didn't notice the double either).

[lalldonn]

It's not someone else's responsibility to pay attention for you. It's your responsibility to pay attention.

[gnasher]

lalldonn, on 2013-February-19, 17:04, said:

It's not someone else's responsibility to pay attention for you. It's your responsibility to pay attention.

It's everybody's responsibility to ensure that the auction ends before anyone tries to start the play. That may not be a legal responsibility, but there is a social responsibility to try to make the game resemble bridge.

The doubler should certainly have said something like "The auction isn't over yet", or "Have you all passed?"

[mycroft]

"I did not pass. I did not pull out a green card, and that is the only way I pass." (unless there aren't bidding boxes, or I've run out, in which case a green card still hits the table somehow) Now what?

Having said that, not only am I raising my hand, I'm pointing to the GLM that makes what she intends to be the final call, and then turns her scorecard over and puts the contract in. After 1♥-2♥; 4♥, or 1NT-3NT, sure; but after a competitive auction to 3♦?

Luckily I haven't met another of those. Luckily I haven't met her since I moved away, or at a tournament where her pet director wasn't directing.

[lalldonn]

gnasher, on 2013-February-19, 17:48, said:

It's everybody's responsibility to ensure that the auction ends before anyone tries to start the play. That may not be a legal responsibility, but there is a social responsibility to try to make the game resemble bridge.

The doubler should certainly have said something like "The auction isn't over yet", or "Have you all passed?"

I totally disagree. He wouldn't even think to ask, since he would interpret each other player picking up their bidding cards as a pass, since obviously if they didn't want to pass they wouldn't do that. His partner not seeing the double was totally unforeseeable (and if he did foresee it then I would find it inappropriate for him to say something, just as it's inappropriate to go to extra lengths to make sure partner notices your signal.)

But I don't want to get into a major discussion on this point. If you want to give fault to the doubler then fine, that still leaves the fault with the appropriate partnership as far as I'm concerned.

[Vampyr]

lalldonn, on 2013-February-19, 18:11, said:

I totally disagree. He wouldn't even think to ask, since he would interpret each other player picking up their bidding cards as a pass, since obviously if they didn't want to pass they wouldn't do that.

Have you ever seen this -- a player passing by picking up his bidding cards after RHO has just made a bid or double? Do you feel that it's the same as the player in the passout seat putting away his cards?

[lalldonn]

Vampyr, on 2013-February-19, 19:27, said:

Have you ever seen this -- a player passing by picking up his bidding cards after RHO has just made a bid or double? Do you feel that it's the same as the player in the passout seat putting away his cards?

Yes, and yes it means the same thing but it's less appropriate. It just means he thought no one else was going to do anything.

[Vampyr]

lalldonn, on 2013-February-19, 19:34, said:

Yes, and yes it means the same thing but it's less appropriate. It just means he thought no one else was going to do anything.

In that case his partner merits a PP for not attempting to escape.

[lalldonn]

lol

[JLOGIC]

I'm pretty surprised that some people think it's common to pick up your cards to pass when your partner still has to act. I have not ever seen that, and I'm pretty sure I'd be offended if an opp did that against me. I am all for things that speed things up (eg if I am last to act, I will never pull out a pass card, though I will usually either say pass or tap the table along with picking up cards).

However, when your partner is left to act, you are giving UI even if it is inadvertant. For instance, maybe your partner realizes that in an auction like this it is very possible to run, and when you pass out of turn even if you are just indicating that it is an obvious all pass, your partner now realizes that you did not even consider running. This means he should run more often than usual since you would never do it yourself.

More likely, if you are sitting there with a minimum hand for your auction, or no honor in the suit that RHO has doubled for, or whatever, you will have some fear and will at least consider that it might be right to run. So if you don't pick up your cards and just pull pass, some part of you is awake to the fact that maybe you should run, or maybe partner will run, etc etc. It is easy to think when you have some good hand or H honor that the auction is just gonna end, but if you are scared by the double then you will not think this way. Whether you pick up the cards or put the pass down is now giving UI.

And honestly, I as your opp have no idea if you are just straight up transmitting UI to your partner that you don't want them to run. Maybe you aren't, but how could I know that if I don't play against you much and you do this? It's just a really bad thing to do.

Maybe this is a low level bridge thing, I feel like I have played against a lot of bad opps and no one has ever done this to me though. If they did I would just say your partner still has a bid or something and probably assume that they thought the auction was over.

[gnasher]

lalldonn, on 2013-February-19, 18:11, said:

He wouldn't even think to ask, since he would interpret each other player picking up their bidding cards as a pass

We're never going to agree about this, because you (and others) think that picking up your cards in a live auction is a normal way to pass, whereas if someone did that where Stefanie and I play, everyone would think he had got the auction wrong, lost his marbles, or just arrived from another planet.

Anyway, I think we've got away from the point. I'm happy to accept that in Spain, picking up your cards before the end of the auction is sometimes used as a way to pass, and sometimes accepted by other players as a way to pass. Let's also assume that in Spain this is not defined in the rules as a legitimate way to pass. (I haven't actually checked this, because my Spanish and my motivation are both insufficient, but as Fluffy's informant was a top director he probably knows.)

In this case, a player picked up his cards, but he didn't intend it as a pass. Has he passed?

It seems to me that he hasn't. It's no different from me saying "Pass me the Bridgemate", and someone else hearing the word "pass" and assuming that I meant it as a call. Or me tapping the table as an intended alert, but somebody else interpreting it as a pass.

[Vampyr]

gnasher, on 2013-February-20, 03:06, said:

We're never going to agree about this, because you (and others) think that picking up your cards in a live auction is a normal way to pass, whereas if someone did that where Stefanie and I play, everyone would think he had got the auction wrong, lost his marbles, or just arrived from another planet.

Plus it's a real waste of time when he has to take them all out again after the face-down opening lead is made

[barmar]

blackshoe, on 2013-February-19, 15:23, said:

I recognize that there are people who can't hold more than one thought in their heads at a time, who are easily distracted, who make assumptions about what's going on around them instead of observing, but frankly I do not understand those people, and I don't have a lot of sympathy for them in playing a game.

Most bidding irregularities (calls out of rotation, insufficient bids, illegal doubles/redoubles) as well as many misbids (e.g. I recently passed with 10 HCP, because I didn't notice my partner had opened) are due to not paying sufficient attention.

Since I've made all these mistakes myself, I'm less judgemental about it than you. However, I'm also willing to take my lumps when I do it, and expect others to do so as well (although in the above example, it was an inadvertent fix -- there was a bad break and we avoided getting too high). And I don't think RHO picking up his bidding cards is a valid excuse.

[GreenMan]

Time for the obligatory call to require the bidding cards to stay on the table till the opening lead is faced. I think that procedure change would solve a lot of problems. I know it's been said before ...

[blackshoe]

Yeah, but if we want to discuss that, we should move to 'changing laws'.

[sfi]

blackshoe, on 2013-February-20, 11:56, said:

Yeah, but if we want to discuss that, we should move to 'changing laws'.

My understanding is that the laws are silent on the matter of proper bidding box procedures, and that it is largely a matter of regulation. For example, ABF regulations do require that the bidding cards remain on the table until the opening lead is faced. This is widely ignored in practice.

[blackshoe]

In practice, regulations (or laws) which are ignored by everyone don't exist. Of course, if they're not ignored by the TD, players who ignore them take the risk of getting an adverse ruling, but then that gives them an excuse to bitch - a lot. Quite a few players seem to enjoy that.

Yes, it's a matter of regulation. The full title of the forum to which I referred is "Changing Laws and Regulations", so that's the place to discuss changes (for example, the ABF regulation, if adopted by the ACBL, would be a change here.

IAC, let's keep the discussion here to how to deal with things under the existing laws and regulations wherever the incident in question took place.