[Ant590]

Teams of 8; cross-IMPs

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Do you agree with the bidding?

[Lord Molyb]

Would prefer 4NT from partner to show the minors. Also I'd rather opps not pre-empt. Otherwise the bidding is fine.

[Fluffy]

west has a slam drive, but as you can see 2 low spades is a vulnerable to heart lead holding (or even non heart lead) in a spade contract.

if pick a slam is avaible west should use it, but if its GSF then I think he made his best with 5♥, commiting to 6♣ is dangerous without ♣J and there is no way to introduce diamonds now.

But after partner bids 5♠ IMO he should not give up and now offer 2 strains with 6♣.

[Zelandakh]

Fluffy, how would West make a grand slam try in clubs with a heart void? It does not feel right to me that bidding this way offers a choice of black suits. I agree with you about 5NT being an option if available but 5♦ looks better to me than 5♥ (or 4NT) as it shows the strength and character of the hand directly.

[Codo]

I think West should pass 4 Spade- the not raised preempt makes it not unlikely that partner has some hearts. How can I ruff them and in the same time draw trumps? So any further bid plays East for a heart stopper or really solid spades- like AKQxxxx. Unlikely.

[Fluffy]

Codo, on 2012-November-19, 05:58, said:

I think West should pass 4 Spade- the not raised preempt makes it not unlikely that partner has some hearts. How can I ruff them and in the same time draw trumps? So any further bid plays East for a heart stopper or really solid spades- like AKQxxxx. Unlikely.

Do you realice that east hand is subminimum for a vul vs not unpassed hand bidding?

[Fluffy]

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-19, 05:30, said:

Fluffy, how would West make a grand slam try in clubs with a heart void?

Well my guess is that he would not make a bid that could gather a 6 or 7♠ response if he is only interested in clubs.

I think 5♦ also agrees spades as trumps, introducing new suits at the 5 level in reverse is not very useful in general.

[Codo]

Fluffy, on 2012-November-19, 12:21, said:

Do you realice that east hand is subminimum for a vul vs not unpassed hand bidding?

No, it is not subminimum for me. I would always bid 4 Spade with this hand. What else?

But which game plan is likely to produce slam in which suit? I see no way to play 6 ♠ if partners spades are not solid. And with solid spades he may had choosen another bid...

Maybe 6 in a minor would be odds on if no spade ruff is comming- so that partner has something like AQxxxx,xxx,xx,Ax - But how to go there? 5 NT?

Is 5 NT: Pick a minor slam over 4 ♠? If so, I would choose it.

[Phil]

Lord Molyb, on 2012-November-18, 19:54, said:

Would prefer 4NT from partner to show the minors. Also I'd rather opps not pre-empt. Otherwise the bidding is fine.

This is wishful thinking at best. I can't imagine 4N would be anything but RKC for spades.

[phil_20686]

Phil, on 2012-November-19, 14:13, said:

This is wishful thinking at best. I can't imagine 4N would be anything but RKC for spades.

?

I think its normal for this to show 4d and six clubs.

I would like to find the right strain when holding 1246 and similar. Its especially important when playing short club when you likely don't even have a natural clubs.

Partner might be forced to bid this way with a decent 5341 for example.

[Codo]

I don't think that it is normal to bid 4 NT here with a 1246 hand... I doubt even that it is the best use for this bid in general.

[PhilKing]

I quite like 5♦ here. This should allow us to bid 5NT pick a slam over the likely sign-off.

Partner should act under the assumption that we are probably, but not definitely agreeing spades, so if he wants to bid slam, he bids 5NT unless his spades are very good. In other words, he has to cater to the huge minor suit hand.

An immediate 4NT, 5H or 5NT all agree spades for sure, so we have to have something we can bid on other hands.

[MrAce]

phil_20686, on 2012-November-20, 04:29, said:

?

I think its normal for this to show 4d and six clubs.

I would like to find the right strain when holding 1246 and similar. Its especially important when playing short club when you likely don't even have a natural clubs.

Partner might be forced to bid this way with a decent 5341 for example.

I know all these 4NT bids are something in BBF, but to me, just like Rodwell said in one of his interviews (or an article) , 4NT is RKCB if it is possibly a RKCB. I tried to find that article or interview so many times after each 4NT suggestions being something else than RKCB in BBF, but i admit i failed to find it, though i am sure i read it. But regardless of what Rodwell said, to me thats also a RKCB 4NT.

I have to also mention that, i have yet to see use of 4NT as sophisticated as in BBF in vugraphs in top events.

[kenberg]

A comment ot two from a somewhat experienced but somewhat casual player:

The fact that some think 4NT is clearly a minor suit take-out and others think it is clearly RKCB means to me that unless I have discussed this with partner, which I haven't, I had better not bid 4NT. I have some of the same feeling about 5♥. I think if I were E I would think my partner is asking me to place the contract in spades at some appropriate level. It appears that this is exactly what E thought at the table. I can see why other uses would be preferable, but only if I am sure we are on the same page.

Now that leaves 5♦, which doesn't sound all that bad to me. On the current layout, E bids 6♣, or at least so I expect. Not that 6♣ is exactly what you would call a cold contract, (a severe understatement) but E can not have less and it is not unreasonable to think that he might have a bit more. If, over 5♦, E has neither a 6♣ bid nor a 6♦ bid, he must have one heck of a spade suit for his 4♠ bid, so he rebids spades at some level. If over 5♦ he bids 5♠, I raise to 6. I stop the first round of hearts, and with his strong spade suit partner can then draw trumps, and then toss some more hearts on some diamonds. Or some such line, depending on just what he has.

At any rate, with my (meaning the W) hand I figure we can make six of something after 4♠, and if it's not in either minor then there ought to be a play for 6♠

In general, after a preempt, I figure getting to a small slam in the correct suit is a good day's work. Bid a grand only if obvious.

Added: Or maybe I am inspired and pass 4♠. Nice to think so.

[MrAce]

kenberg, on 2012-November-24, 06:40, said:

A comment ot two from a somewhat experienced but somewhat casual player:

The fact that some think 5NT is clearly a minor suit take-out and others think it is clearly RKCB means to me that unless I have discussed this with partner, which I haven't, I had better not bid 5NT. I have some of the same feeling about 5♥. I think if I were E I would think my partner is asking me to place the contract in spades at some appropriate level. It appears that this is exactly what E thought at the table. I can see why other uses would be preferable, but only if I am sure we are on the same page.

Did you mean 4NT ? Because thats what we (at least me) were commenting about, over 4♠.

[kenberg]

MrAce, on 2012-November-24, 12:06, said:

Did you mean 4NT ? Because thats what we (at least me) were commenting about, over 4♠.

Yep, thanks I guess my mind, or my fingers, was thinking ahead to the 5♥ bid.

[GreenMan]

kenberg, on 2012-November-24, 06:40, said:

A comment ot two from a somewhat experienced but somewhat casual player:

The fact that some think 4NT is clearly a minor suit take-out and others think it is clearly RKCB means to me that unless I have discussed this with partner, which I haven't, I had better not bid 4NT.

Indeed. In my most recent semi-serious partnership we agreed (at my insistence) that RKC is OFF unless we have explicitly agreed a suit. This was optimal for us, as it was clear and easy to remember, and in practice it simplified a lot more auctions than it complicated. (With a more serious and long-term partnership I would be amenable to a different setup, so long as there IS an agreement.)

With a pickup partner I'd just go out of my way to avoid ambiguous 4NT. On the OP's hand, 5♥ may be the least of evils. I hesitate to criticize it, anyway, because other calls are just as dangerous if 5NT pick-a-slam isn't available.

[mike777]

Ant590, on 2012-November-18, 13:51, said:

Teams of 8; cross-IMPs

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Do you agree with the bidding?

no prefer 4nt over 4s

[kenberg]

mike777, on 2012-November-24, 16:05, said:

no prefer 4nt over 4s

4NT as minor suit take-out? If so, and if partner understands, then I presume he bids 5C. And then? It seems to me that 6♣ is pretty unlikely to come in. But if I am going to settle for game, I think I would pass 4♠.

My sequence (see above) gets us to 6♣, presumably down although miracles happen. So I am not in a position to throw stones. But it seems to me that I either seek the best slam, or I pass 4♠. I have two more and a decent two more, spades than pard knows about, so 4♠ should not be bad.

Preempts cause trouble of course. Maybe pard should be allowed some leeway in his 4♠ call. He went out on a limb, maybe I shouldn't saw it off.

You can see I am having second thoughts about my own sequence.