[BunnyGo]

You hold Qxx, Jx, 9xxxx, Axx and partner (in 3rd seat) opens a 15-17 NT. RHO then sticks in a 2D bid for both majors. Now what?

If you pass or double, LHO will bid 2S, pass back to you. Now what?

In particular, what would your different bids mean--the only thing you've discussed with your partner is that you play Lebensohl, and negative doubles, but this auction or similar was undiscussed. We had discussed that systems were on over X and 2C, excepting when 2C was majors in which case X of 2C was "it's our hand, any shape that isn't bidding naturally" according to my partner.

Thoughts?

[SteveMoe]

If an immediate 2N is Lebensohl, that would be my choice - it makes finding a 2-level major contract moot for the opponents. I suspect we have an 8 card ♦ fit so I will bid 3♦ at my next turn. If I pass I let the opponents find their major too easily. The values are slow and too weak to consider doubling.

[BunnyGo]

 SteveMoe, on 2012-October-16, 21:52, said:

If an immediate 2N is Lebensohl, that would be my choice - it makes finding a 2-level major contract moot for the opponents. I suspect we have an 8 card ♦ fit so I will bid 3♦ at my next turn. If I pass I let the opponents find their major too easily. The values are slow and too weak to consider doubling.

So your plan is to bid 2NT and try to leave partner in 3D?

[wank]

why do you feel the need to do anything with this rancid collection?

[BunnyGo]

 wank, on 2012-October-16, 22:35, said:

why do you feel the need to do anything with this rancid collection?

One of us felt we should (or did take an action) and the other thought that passing out in 2S was not ideal, but not unreasonable given the options. I'm here to poll the community.

[mike777]

 wank, on 2012-October-16, 22:35, said:

why do you feel the need to do anything with this rancid collection?

ditto

did i miss something here?

[the hog]

 mike777, on 2012-October-16, 23:15, said:

ditto

did i miss something here?

Tritto. Bidding on this is poor.

[the_clown]

Pass first, if they stop in 2♥ I might consider doubling for t/o

[Codo]

One reason to bid is that it is often a bad idea to let them play 2 in a major at mps. Besides this your shape is horrible. Make it at least xxx.xx.QJ9xx,Axx and more people would bid.

For your question: X of 2 ♦ would still show- it is our hand. I cannot see a big diffence to a X of 2♣.

So the question is: Do I double with this agreements- we do have the majority of HCPS or do I pass, because my hand is crap and I will get overboard in many situations? I guess, with your agreement, I had doubled 2 ♦ and hope that partner has a take out double of 2 ♠ or that I can X 2 ♥ for take out... But I am not sure, whether passing 2 ♦ will win more often, because it avoids many bad 3 NT contracts.

[PhilKing]

Pass throughout is clear.

[Fluffy]

my experience bidding 5 card minors to the 3 level after partner opens 1NT is that it works awfully. Pass out is best soution as far as I know.

[wyman]

I'd pass. How bad could it be? X should show ownership and set up penalty doubles. Awesome, now partner can't make a tox of spades, I can't make a tox of hearts, and we haven't discussed whether we're forced and how high.

My high cards are close to a dbl, but with the number of shapely 14s that are opened 1N now and this awful 7, I'm really not comfortable even claiming ownership. And I'm certainly not comfortable doubling and then having to bid 3D when 2H comes back to me. And I'm definitely not good enough to rip 2M.

[BunnyGo]

 wyman, on 2012-October-17, 07:38, said:

I'd pass. How bad could it be? X should show ownership and set up penalty doubles. Awesome, now partner can't make a tox of spades, I can't make a tox of hearts, and we haven't discussed whether we're forced and how high.

My high cards are close to a dbl, but with the number of shapely 14s that are opened 1N now and this awful 7, I'm really not comfortable even claiming ownership. And I'm certainly not comfortable doubling and then having to bid 3D when 2H comes back to me. And I'm definitely not good enough to rip 2M.

This was part of the conversation afterwards:

What is the difference between X-X and Pass-X. You seem to be saying that X-X is penalty, my partner was saying that it was TO and that Pass-X was "don't even look at your cards, just pass it out p."

[Fluffy]

IMO X-X is 100% penalty, because I play X the same as a redouble wich makes all doubles penalty, and invites partner to double. I though this was pretty standard.

pass and double is rare, convertible values not worth a double before but worth competing a bit further and also worth playing doubled if partner wants is possible but unlikelly (2NT is avaible as pick a minor). So is a hand that wants to double 2♠ for penalty but can't sit over 2♥X, I am not sure what the best meaning is.

[Zelandakh]

The usual thing is that X-X is penalty and P-X is takeout. You can adjust the former if you like but not the latter.

[wyman]

 BunnyGo, on 2012-October-17, 08:32, said:

This was part of the conversation afterwards:

What is the difference between X-X and Pass-X. You seem to be saying that X-X is penalty, my partner was saying that it was TO and that Pass-X was "don't even look at your cards, just pass it out p."

My understanding is that, today, your partner's approach would be wildly nonstandard. But there is likely a reason that your understanding and mine are similar, so take that for what it's worth.

[BunnyGo]

 wyman, on 2012-October-17, 09:07, said:

My understanding is that, today, your partner's approach would be wildly nonstandard. But there is likely a reason that your understanding and mine are similar, so take that for what it's worth.

I've been known to be out of touch with "standard" as well--especially after time away from playing.

[BunnyGo]

Ok, thanks all. I passed this out, and 2♠ was cold for a 0 for us.

[wyman]

 BunnyGo, on 2012-October-18, 15:51, said:

Ok, thanks all. I passed this out, and 2♠ was cold for a 0 for us.

So what were the other auctions? If RHO went nuts with the 2D bid, or if the field bid 2H because they have 45xx, or ... well, sucks but that happens, next hand. I don't think you lost this board on judgment unless it was in the POTH.

[BunnyGo]

 wyman, on 2012-October-18, 16:20, said:

So what were the other auctions? If RHO went nuts with the 2D bid, or if the field bid 2H because they have 45xx, or ... well, sucks but that happens, next hand. I don't think you lost this board on judgment unless it was in the POTH.

I didn't get to see the traveler, but the 2D bid was normal (was 54 and they had a 9 card spade fit). The others either got to play in 1NT or 3D all making.