[Fluffy]

After 1NT (14-16) opening we used to play:

2♣ stayman, escape from 1NT with both majors, any invitational hand with 4 or 5cM or some GF hands that don't wanna relay
2♦ GF relay with full shape description below 3NT, this will be keep
2♥ nat to play
2♠ nat to play
2NT forces 3♣ to play 3m or show singleton major
3♣/3♦ invitational
3M nat GF


I am not enterilly happy with this mainly because invitational hands with 5 hearts are a mess, with spades after 2♣ you always have room for 2♠ next so its fine, but with 5♥ things are bad if partner has 4♠

So I envisioned this other structure:

2♣ heart stayman, escape from 1NT with hearts or both reds, invitational hands with 4cM (invitational without 4cM maybe as well)
2♦ GF relay
2♥ transfer
2♠ and above typical 1NT with transfer structure, or something to be develop.

The goal with 1NT-2♣ is to be able to stop in 2♥ if partner has a weak hand with 5♥, and to find 4-4 heart or spade fit and be able to invite to game, also it can be done with 4♥-4+♦ to escape 1NT

responeses

1NT-2♣
2♦ 2 hearts (now invitational hands with 5 hearts know to downgrade, weak red hands might pass, invitational hands with 4 spades can bid 2 spades, and inv no majors 2NT)
2♥ 3 hearts (now invitational hands with 5 hearts can go to the 3 level with some safety), 2♠ now is invitational 4 cards.
2♠ 4 hearts 4 spades minimum, weak hands escaping will comit to the 3 level but at least with a fit
2NT 4 hearts 2/3 spades minimum, same as above
3m 4 hearts no 4 spades maximum
3♥ 4-4M maximum

need to codify responses after opener shows 4♥ so that 3♦ is transfer and 3♥ is invitational with heart fit.


advantages: 4c♠ invitationals don't go to the 3 level with fit, invitationals with 5c♥ only go to the 3 level with fit, free 2♠ bid for whatever purpose, with 4-4H fit responder will be able to decide who declares 4♥
disadvantages: weak hands with 5 hearts go to the 3 level with 4 card fit, trade 4-4M weak hand escape to 4♥-4♦ weak hand escape but they go to the 3 level with 4-4♥ fit, high complexity, invitational hands with 5 spade will go to the 3 level unless 2♠ is specifically used for them.


please tell me how you feel about the disadvantages


EDIT: Maybe with 5♠ invitational hands best is to start with 2♣ and next bid 2♠ ambiguous 4-5 cards, partner might pass a moysan with minimum or show degree of support with maximum, 2NT will be played with spades 5-2 wich is bad, but its the same after a transfer sequence.

[the_clown]

We play boring 4way transfers and we are able to make a Gameforcing Relay after we start with 2C. Example:

1N-2C
2D-2S GF Relay ask for distribution.

1N-2C
2H-2N GF, ask for distribution

1N-2C
2S-3C GF, ask for distribution

We include 5card majors in our 1NT and are able to find out opener's shape below 3N.

[PrecisionL]

Fluffy, I have a better method:

If you want to make 2-level invitational bids in the Majors, then considered Klinger's Keri over 1NT.
I have been playing this scheme for 5-years and am very happy with it.

2♣ > transfer to 2♦

(a) to play (pass)

(b) Invitational with one major 4 or 5-cds, rebid the major

{c} Game Force: Rebid 2NT for shape: Opener shows 5cd M or any 4333 hand (3♦) or 3♣ other

2♦ and 2♥ are transfers: usually 5-cd suits, occasionally 4-cd suit with both majors.
2♠ is size ask (2NT = minimum) or game force with a strong one suiter (rebid the suit = RKC)
2NT I forget?

I have a 20 page summary in word if you want more details or buy Klinger's book: Bid Better After Opening 1NT

[Fluffy]

forgot to mention, our 1NT never has 5cM

[CSGibson]

have you given thought to packaging the invitational club/diamond hands in 2♣, allowing a direct 3♣/3♦ to play, and freeing up 2N for something else? In one partnership we play almost that exact method, and use 2N as invitational with 5 hearts, though it is in context of a weak NT.

[awm]

I haven't given this a great deal of thought, because I think 2♦ GF relay over 1NT is a really terrible method (basically, the wrong hand is describing, and if you want relays after 1NT they can easily start with 2♣ anyway giving you room for transfers).

In any case, it seems you could improve this by playing over 1NT-2♣:

2♦ = not four hearts
... Pass = weak reds
... 2♥ = five hearts invite (NF)
... 2♠ = 4-5 spades invite
... 2NT = invite without 4♠ or 5♥
2♥ = four hearts
... Pass = weak reds
... 2♠ = 4-5 spades invite
... 2NT = invite without 4M (if you don't care about this hand type, you can make this invite with 4♠ and 2♠=invite with 5♠)
... 3♥ = 4-5♥ invite (of course, some 5♥ invites bid game now)

The rest of your structure would remain as your original plan (2M to play, etc). This gets you out lower on some invites (especially with five hearts) and doesn't seem to cost a whole lot.

[inquiry]

I would say that this could be interesting, and would be interested in how it turns out, but then I have played many strange treatments over 1NT. One I playd for about six years off and on i wrote aout in thtese forums in 2004 (if interested see post 2520 on invitational 2D ). The invitational 2D had some similarities to your method, but the game force hands were not all forced into 2C....


Like your method an immediate 1nt-2h or 1nt-2S was to play.
All invitational hands without a four card major went through 2c
2D was undefined game invite with paradox responses, so for instance, 1n-2d-2h denied game interest in hearts. With more tha a miniumum would be doubleton heart. 1ntt-2d-2S would accept game try in hearts but not spades with obvious distributional info shared with partner and opponents

i got out in 2M way more often than others, a down side was defense knew more (perhaps) about 1nt opener on the rare 1n-2d-2s and 1n-2d-2h-2s-4s type auctions.

2NT, 3C, 3D, and 3H were all transfers (think of 3D and 3H as jumping jacoby!!.... The 3D and 3H bids were game forcing, and opener could show fit and controls over the jumping transfer. 3S was stolen from romex and was a convention named confi.

My experience with invitational 2D was good, but the quality of opponents I played it against was suspect, so I don't know if the good results I use to get with it would hold up as well against advanced and expert players (as compared to standard methods). I stopped playing it in 2005 when I lost a partner due to non-bridge related issues.

[Fluffy]

awm, on 2012-October-30, 19:19, said:

I haven't given this a great deal of thought, because I think 2♦ GF relay over 1NT is a really terrible method (basically, the wrong hand is describing, and if you want relays after 1NT they can easily start with 2♣ anyway giving you room for transfers).

In any case, it seems you could improve this by playing over 1NT-2♣:

2♦ = not four hearts
... Pass = weak reds
... 2♥ = five hearts invite (NF)
... 2♠ = 4-5 spades invite
... 2NT = invite without 4♠ or 5♥
2♥ = four hearts
... Pass = weak reds
... 2♠ = 4-5 spades invite
... 2NT = invite without 4M (if you don't care about this hand type, you can make this invite with 4♠ and 2♠=invite with 5♠)
... 3♥ = 4-5♥ invite (of course, some 5♥ invites bid game now)

The rest of your structure would remain as your original plan (2M to play, etc). This gets you out lower on some invites (especially with five hearts) and doesn't seem to cost a whole lot.

It costs the 2♠ bid since this 2♣ doesn't include weak hands with 5+ ♥, wich might be worth it if I don't find a good use of it, having both 2♠ , 2NT and highers free for non slam intentional hands might be good but I will need to think a lot about it.

Might also combine your structure with 2NT invitational with 5♥ making 2♥ transfer

[Fluffy]

I like the 2♦ invitational thing Ben, and also some other alternatives, but it doesn't fit so well on the rest of my system, its not only the 1NT-2♦ that goes for GF relay, there are other sequences that end up in 1NT or 2♣ after 1♣ opening that show balanced hands and start relays as well. I might change it all in the future but right now gonna keep it.

But the idea of invitational p/c is making me think, perhaps I can use it for 2♠ or 2NT for the minors and I also had a similar idea for 1NT-3M where opener showed where he would acept a splinter slam try.