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Automation No human touch.

#1 User is offline   pirate22 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 08:38

With Rolands demise :)i am a little concerned-Today watching Vu-Graph-taking into account China time
in advance....with the matches to be shewn organised by the powers to be at Lille,and can be changed
at a moments notice, as i understand we will have written commentaries,a presupposed authorised list.
will there be any fake experts??? will they write in English?
and assume Voice commentaries-by known experts without question.
So i assume one will be left in the dark,the Human touch will be lost, who, and at which match,
will do the voice commentaries.
at least with Roland he did give prior notice to spectators,who was doing what,at which match.
Subject to change without prior notice to the Human organiser.{Roland}
I fear the worst--{more confusion}
However we may get a response from the Automanate :):)
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#2 User is offline   TMorris 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 12:53

We already have fake experts - you can just make them enemies and you don't have to read/listen to them.
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#3 User is offline   pirate22 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 19:29

I use the word "Demise" meaning they have made Roland Redundent.
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#4 User is offline   pirate22 

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Posted 2012-August-20, 17:49

Automation-The Human Touch,Congratulations last night 7300 Kibbers at the
Monaco/Sweden SF.with a further treat, because the open room finnished in
good time Roland took his crew over to the closed room,and they touched
on Nuances from the other room.it made it even more exciting to witness
different systems at work,and how different other players thoughts work.
such spontineity,alas not so with Automation.
Further loss i feel is the mix of voice commentators selected by Roland
I will miss, the dry humour wit during the lulls when a pedestrian 1n/t
comes up,and the little aside nuggets that are voiced....
I fear the worst-------- regards
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#5 User is offline   pirate22 

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Posted 2012-September-02, 06:28

To keep the pot boiling.............

As of today 1st September--The Automoorons have changed the Format of the Vu-Graph
Schedule.no longer do we know which event will have Voice Commentary.
"Roll UP" Roll up-take pot luck...Put up with it..............

At least the Human touch ROLAND was aware and appreciative of this facility.
So much for progress i fear more "C*ck Ups"
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#6 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-September-02, 13:25

No change has been made. It's up to the organizers to indicate whether voice commentary is desired when submitting the event to the schedule. They can also update this if it changes.

I don't know why none of the organizers for the next few events requested voice, but it's up to them. Maybe they'll change it.

#7 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2012-September-02, 13:39

View Postbarmar, on 2012-September-02, 13:25, said:

No change has been made. It's up to the organizers to indicate whether voice commentary is desired when submitting the event to the schedule. They can also update this if it changes.

I don't know why none of the organizers for the next few events requested voice, but it's up to them. Maybe they'll change it.


I could be wrong, but my understanding was that Roland had selected from amongst the scheduled vugraph broadcasts which ones would be most appropriate for voice commentary (presumably the ones he expected to have the most spectators, whilst using his judgement on the likely number of sensible commentators he could recruit).
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#8 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2012-September-02, 15:28

View Postjallerton, on 2012-September-02, 13:39, said:

I could be wrong, but my understanding was that Roland had selected from amongst the scheduled vugraph broadcasts which ones would be most appropriate for voice commentary (presumably the ones he expected to have the most spectators, whilst using his judgement on the likely number of sensible commentators he could recruit).

Spot on, Jeffrey. One has to be active, not passive and wait for something to happen. It won't. Before Lille when I announced my resignation I was asked and sent Uday a list with potential voice commentators (34 altogether as far as I recall), real names as well as user ID's. I also offered email addresses, so that my successor can get in touch and ask people to sign up for specific events. Those addresses were not needed at that point, I was told.

As I am on that list myself, and given that I did not receive anything yet, I assume that this person has not been found/selected. Alternatively, he/she is not going to follow that procedure. It's a good one in my opinion, but it takes some effort. Nothing happens automatically no matter how much automation you introduce.
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#9 User is offline   Lurpoa 

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Posted 2012-September-03, 23:31



I make an appeal to all you bridge-loving decision makers.

Please, please,

You built such a nice tool, which provided us so much joy,
Please, please, make sure it continues.

Lurpoa



Bob Herreman
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#10 User is offline   andyv 

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Posted 2012-September-06, 23:28

I am one person who truly appreciates what BBO has given to the community of bridge players. Making this venue accessible to one and all is gift that I and thousands of others around the world, are very grateful and I want to thank the organizers and day to day handlers of BBO for their contributions, both financially and in time put in.

As a commentator on vugraph, I grew a tremendous amount of respect for Roland Wald. The time and effort he put into the production of the vugraph event was a smooth running operation that can really be appreciated when compared to what is being done now that he has left. I'm sorry to say that this is one area the BBO has fallen in quality. The product that Roland was able to put out event after event, was of the highest quality. Now it appears to be a rather random shot whether a vugraph will even have any commentators. Although I am asked to do some of the events when I come on line (which I do enjoy doing) the lack of direction has hurt the vugraph operations. Perhaps time will take care of this problem The one thing time won't take care is the very human touch and humor that Roland put into his work. That is something that automation can never replace. I do hope BBO reconsiders their position on this matter. They really had a very good thing going.

Andy Vinock
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#11 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-September-07, 08:44

View PostLurpoa, on 2012-September-03, 23:31, said:

Please, please, make sure it continues.

It's not going anywhere, we're going to continue improving it.

It's really too bad Roland wasn't willing to work with us on this, we miss his assistance as well.

#12 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2012-September-07, 10:22

View Postbarmar, on 2012-September-07, 08:44, said:

It's really too bad Roland wasn't willing to work with us on this, we miss his assistance as well.


Describing everything Roland has done for BBO Vugraph over the last ten years as "assistance" must be the biggest understatement ever written on BBO Forums.
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#13 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2012-September-07, 10:31

View Postbarmar, on 2012-September-07, 08:44, said:

It's not going anywhere, we're going to continue improving it.

It's really too bad Roland wasn't willing to work with us on this, we miss his assistance as well.

... or it's really too bad BBO wasn't willing to work with Roland on this. I suggested a compromise in an email to Fred about a month ago, but the response I got was that he is not involved. The decisions are made by Uday, and I accept that. Anyway, it's too late now, and I am enjoying my retirement.

Still no word as to who is going to take over. Sadly, the organisation of written commentary collapsed after I switched to voice. I would hate to see the same happen to voice commentary. I really want to be proven wrong, but I doubt that I will, because there is probably not another idiot out there who thinks it's a brilliant idea to spend the time it takes to organise this properly.
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#14 User is offline   pirate22 

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Posted 2012-September-08, 10:10

At last some weight and momentum is being generated.How Roland was allowed
to slip into OBLIVION by the powers to be,is beyond comphrehension.
Who is responsible for this allmighty C*ck up. can we have some names plse.??
The voice Commentaries organised by Roland were an asset and a treat,
Top Quality,and it also motivated top commentators,what do we have now???
nothing-I say again nothing-in fact it has collapsed completely.
most events at present are barren.with Buffet Cup coming up,
Such an exciting event,about to be spoilt by the "AUTOMOORONS"
with fake written commentators.as i read the situation overall
Roland Wald has been alienated by some idiots.
aa a BBO member I am prepared to pay an annual sub to get back
the absolute pleasure and delight of the previous arrangement,
With Captain Roland at the helm-- Such ineptitude F.G.
I would appreciate your comments please..WHY WHY???
no doubt Barmar will scuttle up something Improve the situation
{how Fatious}
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#15 User is offline   pirate22 

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Posted 2012-September-08, 10:23

A futher comment--- When Roland was recently doing Lille.
with his expertise,and excellent fellow voice commentators,
at one Table there was 7603 spectators..that speaks VOLUMES.
The Moorons, apologies AUTOMOORONS will never achieve this.
Can we have the names of the persons responsible for this
Crass decision,and the reasoning,or is that to embarresing?
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#16 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2012-September-08, 10:31

View Postbarmar, on 2012-September-07, 08:44, said:

It's not going anywhere, we're going to continue improving it.

It's really too bad Roland wasn't willing to work with us on this, we miss his assistance as well.

This comment should be removed.
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#17 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2012-September-08, 11:25

View Postpirate22, on 2012-September-08, 10:10, said:

At last some weight and momentum is being generated.How Roland was allowed
to slip into OBLIVION by the powers to be,is beyond comphrehension.
Who is responsible for this allmighty C*ck up. can we have some names plse.??
The voice Commentaries organised by Roland were an asset and a treat,
Top Quality,and it also motivated top commentators,what do we have now???
nothing-I say again nothing-in fact it has collapsed completely.
most events at present are barren.with Buffet Cup coming up,
Such an exciting event,about to be spoilt by the "AUTOMOORONS"
with fake written commentators.as i read the situation overall
Roland Wald has been alienated by some idiots.
aa a BBO member I am prepared to pay an annual sub to get back
the absolute pleasure and delight of the previous arrangement,
With Captain Roland at the helm-- Such ineptitude F.G.
I would appreciate your comments please..WHY WHY???
no doubt Barmar will scuttle up something Improve the situation
{how Fatious}

I was not directly involved in any of this, but since you asked let's have a reality check. What follows is based on my perception of reality. Since, as I said, I was not directly involved, it is possible (though not likely in my view) that some of what follows is not strictly accurate or complete.

Here is a list of the primary tasks that are involved in organizing a vugraph broadcast:

1) Organizer expresses interest in broadcasting a particular event

2) Organizer supplies various details (session starting times, number of tables being broadcast, event web site, etc)

3) This information is included in the vugraph schedule, organizer is supplied with vugraph ID and passwords, instructions, etc.

4) If organizer prefers that BBO supply text commentators, such commentators are provided. Some organizers prefer to assign their own commentators.

5) If BBO decides that the event in question is appropriate for voice commentary, voice commentators are provided. In principle I suppose it is possible that organizers handle this themselves as well, but voice commentary is still relatively new and I am not aware of any organizers who have opted to assign their own voice commentators in the past.

6) At the time of the broadcasts, both text and voice commentators must be given permission to chat/speak.

Before there was automation, Roland had been responsible for 1, 2, 5, and parts of 3 and 6. It has been at least several months since Roland has been involved in 4 (because Roland resigned from 4 in order to focus on 5 well before we even started work on vugraph automation). 4 is not relevant to this discussion.

In my view items 1, 2, and 3 are perfect candidates for automation. That is because I believe that most organizers should be able to deal with these tasks without any (human) help on our end thereby making the process more efficient and (hopefully) more accurate. Those organizers who feel that they need help from a human have the choice of bypassing the automated system and dealing directly with a polite and competent human in our support department.

These are largely what I would call "mundane administrative tasks" - if I had Roland's job I suspect I would be very happy to be relieved of these duties. The same goes for 6.

Apparently Roland did not feel this way. His reaction to our giving organizers the option of bypassing his services for 1, 2, and 3 was to resign from 5 (and to resign from being the human that organizers still had the right to contact if they chose that "the human touch" was important to them for items 1, 2, and 3).

Speaking as a fan of vugraph, I personally regret that Roland chose to resign. Speaking as one of the owners of BBO, I can assure you that Roland was not fired nor was he pressured in any way to resign (quite the contrary - BBO made it clear that we wanted to continue to work with Roland once the automated system was in place).

In fact, the decisions that were made were not about Roland - they were about providing organizers with options that we thought (and still think) have the potential to streamline the various processes involved in vugraph management. They were also about ensuring that vugraph could continue to run smoothly during times in which Roland was on vacation, sick, on strike, whatever.

While the current system is still very new and still far from perfect, it is working fairly well already. Several flaws have been found, but they have been quickly addressed by Barmar. I fully expect this to continue. For example, I expect it is only a matter of time until we automate parts of 6 above.

Meanwhile, as far as I can tell, the only effective difference from the vugraph audience's point of view between life with Roland and life post-Roland is that there is not as much voice commentary as before. That is too bad and it is especially too bad that Roland has not done much (if any) voice commentary himself - he is excellent at it.

But again, this has been Roland's choice. BBO made very sure Roland knew that, regardless of what happened in terms of his role as vugraph coordindator, we hoped that he would continue to contribute frequently as a voice commentator.

If you would like to see this happen then I suggest you and like-minded people let Roland know. In my view there is absolutely no reason why his decision to remove himself from vugraph coordination should have any impact on this role as a vugraph commentator. But please don't bug BBO about this - we are not going to start making software or policy decisions based on how often Roland (or anyone else) chooses to volunteer as a voice commentator. Hopefully you can understand that.

Despite some of your rude and insulting remarks toward BBO and its staff, I have decided to answer your request for a statement about these matters because there is a lot of misinformation floating around. I hope this post has managed to clarify things from my point of view (which has mostly been that of a neutral but well-informed observer).

That being said, I have no interest in getting into any further public discussion about this, to say anything that might publicly embarrass either my co-workers or my friend Roland, or to assign blame for what is in some ways an unfortunate state of affairs but for which I don't think anyone really did anything that is blameworthy.

Of course please feel to continue to discuss amongst yourselves, but please refrain from asking me any further questions about these matters. Everything I have to say has been written above.

Fred Gitelman
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#18 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2012-September-08, 11:31

View Postjillybean, on 2012-September-08, 10:31, said:

This comment should be removed.

No no, if this is how barmar sees it, there is no need to remove anything. He is obviously entitled to his opinion. I must confess that the word 'assistance' makes me smile and weep at the same time. For your information, Barry, I actually *ran* BBO Vugraph for 10 years, single-handed. The bridge world seemed to acknowledge that fact when I received the 2011 International Bridge Press Association Personality of the Year Award.

You are no doubt an excellent programmer, but vugraph organisation is perhaps not your strongest suit.
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#19 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2012-September-08, 12:09

Quote

Fred wrote:
Meanwhile, as far as I can tell, the only effective difference from the vugraph audience's point of view between life with Roland and life post-Roland is that there is not as much voice commentary as before. That is too bad and it is especially too bad that Roland has not done much (if any) voice commentary himself - he is excellent at it.

As far as I know there has not been any tournament with voice commentary since August 23rd when I did my 41st consecutive voice session from Lille. Is the Buffett Cup (starting Monday) going to have voice? I am asking because no-one approached me or any other member of the squad, and I don't see the speaker icon on the schedule web page.

"BBO will be in touch" was the last sentence I and the other 300 got from Uday when I, shortly before Lille started, announced my resignation as the coordinator after the WMSG.
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#20 User is offline   pirate22 

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Posted 2012-September-09, 04:20

Immediate reply--Thank you Fred for your Input,should have been done earlier,
a lot of information to digest,
Obviously the organizers that submit their event,have no idea of the extras
they need to organise-who is and who is not qualified to commentate voice wise,
with respect i would not want an so called Turkish expert on the panel,
Who controls this??? my apologies to any pucker Turkish expert but you get
my drift.
What BBO has created for us Kibbers under the Guidence of Roland, was a Top
Qualty addition to Vu-Graph.now completely destroyed.and has alienated
certain persons, That they may never coperate under the present regime.
While many of us appreciate change a lesson is here for all to see.
if proposals in future are forthcoming-it should be aired in the forum,
Thus enableing feedback,for things not fully thought through.
But then again fellow BBO's what do we know???.
I am pleased to see lots of support for Roland and his previous endeavours,
but still giving us an input,but i fear we shall never know the true
what went on.............. regards
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