[masse24]

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Do you take the High Road or Low Road?

Thanks!

[mike777]

this is a very very typical death hand in 2/1

this is an old old prb in 2/1



you pick your poison.


I will try 3c here but Understand other choices---

--

many play a toy here 2nt to show this hand.

[chasetb]

I'll say that without partnership discussion, I have to bid 3♥. I take away 3 points for the lack of a 4th trump, but then add 2 back for a singleton with 3 trump, and a point or two more for a nice hand. I won't force to 4 because I need partner to have a 5th trump or at least 8 HCP for game, unless my partner was Garozzo or someone similar.

What mike777 is going on about is that a few people use 2♦ as either a reverse into Diamonds, or a hand that would rebid 2NT. That frees up 2NT to show this "Death Hand", as well as showing any 15+ HCP hand with 4 Hearts and 5+ Clubs.

Playing Walsh transfers (assuming legal) or Mexican 2♦, you also free up a 2NT rebid for this purpose.

[Cyberyeti]

chasetb, on 2012-May-14, 23:23, said:

Playing Walsh transfers (assuming legal) or Mexican 2♦, you also free up a 2NT rebid for this purpose.

We also have the artificial 2N, it's even easier with a weak or wide range no trump to organise your no trump ranges to have no gap between 1N opener, 1N rebid and 2N opener (you may also have to downgrade your 2♣-2♦-2N a point so Kokish is useful).

[Zelandakh]

2NT in America, 1♠ in Germany, 3♣ in England, 2♦ or 2NT with the appropriate artificiality. Lots of different solutions out there - you pays your money...

[kriegel]

I think I'd try my luck with 1♠. 3♥ is probably my second choice, but I think it's a bit heavy for that. This is quite a convincing argument for an artificial 2NT rebid...

[Stephen Tu]

I very much like a semi-artificial 2s rebid with this sort of hand (6+ clubs, spade stop (not 4cd), not diamonds, possibly heart support), rather than having to structure things to play an artificial 2nt rebid. Play 1s as a 1rf vs. non-submin responders with natural spade hands that would normally jump shift, catch up later. After 2s, responder can bid 2nt with 5+H 1rf (3h with GF 6+H), 3c with 4H with min to signoff, 3d GF 4- H, else natural. After 2nt, opener can bid 3c nf without support, 3d/3h with, inv/forcing or however you want to structure it. Similar idea can be done over 1d-1h. Credit for idea to article by B.Y. Yang in the K-S mailing list.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2012-May-15, 04:11, said:

2NT in America, 1♠ in Germany, 3♣ in England, 2♦ or 2NT with the appropriate artificiality. Lots of different solutions out there - you pays your money...

You forgot GGG ( Gnasher's Gameforce Gadget ) The 2S-jump rebid over a 1H response ( my replies ):

1C - 1H
2S! - 2NT! ( asks for clarification )
??
.. 3C = long ♣; ♠ bid was artificial
.. 3D! = ( other minor ) 4 cards ♠
.. 3H = 3 cards ♥, 5+ ♣, ♠ bid was artificial

[TWO4BRIDGE]

masse24.....

We are ready for North's hand . ( Or at least I am ) .

[masse24]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-May-17, 17:46, said:

masse24.....

We are ready for North's hand . ( Or at least I am ) .

At the table...

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[bluecalm]

This is why systems like precision and polish club are much easier and more natural to play without many agreements than "standard".
You are completely helpless here without good system.

The solution to those problems is "multi-reverse" convention as played by top Italian pairs:
It goes like this:

1C - 1H
2D/2S*

1C - 1S
2D/2H*

1D - 1H
2S**

1D - 1S
2H**

* if there are two "multireverses" available the higher one promises 3 card support in partner's suit and the other denies it.
** if there is only one "multireverse" it's just any 16+

After multireverse you bid as follows:
-relay (cheapiest new suit or 2NT) is any gf, 8+pc after which you bid more or less natural
-other bids are natural and weak

In your example it would go:
1C - 1H
2S* - 3H**
4H

*-16+, any with 3+hearts
**-5-7hcp, 5+hearts

This is vastly superior way to play comparing to standard or "strong reverse" which is just full of holes and basically unplayable (the only thing which prevents you from instantly losing by playing those is that strong hands come up rarely).

Disclaimer: it's a bit simplified version; there are some problems for example what if:
1C - 1H
2S - 3D is better played as GF or weak (Italians play it as GF natural) but those require a lot of partnership work while basic multireverse is quite simple.

[benlessard]

One thing that im convinced is that your first forcing bid should be artificial or have a very high frequency.

After 1C-1M-?? If you play 1S as forcing than you should bid 1S with many akward hands. If 1S/1Nt/2C arent forcing and 2D is forcing, I dont really care what 2D should be, but It should have a fairly high frequency and keeping it as pure reverse is simply inferior.

Without artificiality I think I prefer 3H if partner respond light or 2S if partner is sound.

[bluecalm]

Quote

After 1C-1M-?? If you play 1S as forcing than you should bid 1S with many akward hands.

It's not so simple. You need a bid for strong hands but if you mix some weak and strong hands together in say 1S then you will not untangle it without losing on some frequent hands.
If it goes:

1C - 1H and you have 12hcp and 4 spades here you need to bid 1S here, if you put some non-spade strong hand there you are in tough spot after very common 2S or 3S rebid. If partner can't bid those with usual hands your in trouble on basic hands.
This is why you need bids which are unambiguously strong. Reverses are perfect for the purpose because they are rare as natural bids, you usually play a partial in partner's suit or your long suit if strength of combined hands is not enough for game and if it's enough for game you have enough space to explore.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

GGG strikes again ...

[32519]

Zelandakh, on 2012-May-15, 04:11, said:

2NT in America, 1♠ in Germany, 3♣ in England, 2♦ or 2NT with the appropriate artificiality. Lots of different solutions out there - you pays your money...

How would our Italian Gazzilli friends bid this hand? 1-of-a-suit in their system promises an unbalanced hand. Maybe something like this?
1♣ = Suit, unbalanced
1♥ = Natural
2♣ = Gazzilli?
2♥ = Natural 5-7 HCP
4♥ = Natural, signoff

[mike777]

masse24, on 2012-May-17, 21:50, said:

At the table...

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so this is a very difficult problem but this type we have an easy answer this time


we bid 3d


3c again is very wide range here, very wide.

we bid 3d and hope we survive but of course this could be a disaster.


passing 3c is shooting for a very narrow answer that can be a disaster also.

for me it helps to know that pard does not, does not have bal or semi bal hand with long clubs and 14+
pard has shortness, somewhere.

here one wonders why the opp never bid D.

[Zelandakh]

32519, on 2012-May-18, 06:02, said:

How would our Italian Gazzilli friends bid this hand?

Or with strong club:-

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1♦ = (almost) any non-GF
1♥ = 18-20 any or 23+ bal
... - 1♠ = relay
2♣ = 5+ clubs, unbal
... - 2♥ = nat
3♣ = nat
... - 3♦ = nat
3♥ = nat
... - 4♥

[bluecalm]

I am shocked that 3C is winning here. I think it's terrible bid. I much prefer 3D or 2N or even playing "American Standard". Those bids gives you chances for finding 5-3 heart game and guarantee finding it if partner has 6 hearts while after 3C even that will not be enough.

[Flem72]

masse24, on 2012-May-14, 22:34, said:

---

Do you take the High Road or Low Road?

Thanks!

I take Route XYZ:

1C-1H
1S*-2H**
4H

* = forcing (SNT base, inv+ spl in all suits)
** = weak, 5+H

[benlessard]

Quote

It's not so simple. You need a bid for strong hands but if you mix some weak and strong hands together in say 1S then you will not untangle it without losing on some frequent hands.
If it goes:

1C - 1H and you have 12hcp and 4 spades here you need to bid 1S here, if you put some non-spade strong hand there you are in tough spot after very common 2S or 3S rebid. If partner can't bid those with usual hands your in trouble on basic hands.
This is why you need bids which are unambiguously strong. Reverses are perfect for the purpose because they are rare as natural bids, you usually play a partial in partner's suit or your long suit if strength of combined hands is not enough for game and if it's enough for game you have enough space to explore.

If you bid 1S with any strong hand holding at least 3S and have decent follow up you wont have a problem IMO. If all others strong bid denies 3S (Hxx) you will be very well placed in the long run. Its an illusion that you need to split out strenght right away, what you need is to be able to control the auction IE having decent follow up no matter what partner respond. Strong hand are often protected by the ability to take an extra bid because of the unexpected strenght.

Playing 1S forcing I would prefer to bid 1S with a fair amount of 18-19 bal holding 3S for example. So that my 2NT can be artificial or if its natural its going to show nice stops in the unbid suit or denies Hxx in S for example.

In many auction the optimal pattern

1st step = many thing,2nd= fairly precise,3rd precise etc..

With keeping the 1st forcing bid with a fairly wide meaning (either catch-all, relay asking partner to describe more or quasi forced puppet allowing you to make a further description) you can rarely go wrong IMO. This is especially true for reverse & strong jump shift and for their responses.