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What was the correct bid?

#1 User is offline   perry93 

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Posted 2012-May-03, 14:59

Hey guys, here is the hand

Posted Image

I went 3NT-1 ... Correct was 4. What was the correct bid?
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-May-03, 16:09

1-1-2-4

or if you play checkback

1-1-1N-2(checkback)-2-4

I habitually play a weak no trump, so it's less likely I'm going to play in 1N when I should be in 2 if I rebid 1N and I'd do the latter with a king more, playing a strong no trump and with the actual south hand, I'd do the former.
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#3 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2012-May-03, 17:51

View Postperry93, on 2012-May-03, 14:59, said:

Hey guys, here is the hand

Posted Image

I went 3NT-1 ... Correct was 4. What was the correct bid? N had to bid 3?


Don't rebid 1d-1h-2d with just 5 diamonds!
It's a very common error for beginners to rebid 5 cd suits instead of bidding 1nt when appropriate. Just because you might have opened on a 3 cd minor doesn't mean it's right for you to rebid on 5. Partner might well have 2 or fewer and 1nt plays better than your minor, takes fewer tricks to make, and scores better if you make overtricks. 1nt also leaves more room for partner to investigate. Rebid 1nt or raise partner's major in priority to rebidding a 5 cd suit. You can rebid you minor if 6 cd suit.

Raising to 2h is possible, as Cyberyeti recommends, but with a strongish doubleton in clubs I wouldn't do it. Change the clubs to xx / Jx / Ax and I like the raise more.

Another problem is that 3nt is cold, you should never go down if that was the layout. you have 5 heart 2club and spade, just have to establish diamond for 9th trick.
Or if they lead spade just duck it and you have 9th trick.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 02:14

View PostStephen Tu, on 2012-May-03, 17:51, said:

Don't rebid 1d-1h-2d with just 5 diamonds!
It's a very common error for beginners to rebid 5 cd suits instead of bidding 1nt when appropriate. Just because you might have opened on a 3 cd minor doesn't mean it's right for you to rebid on 5. Partner might well have 2 or fewer and 1nt plays better than your minor, takes fewer tricks to make, and scores better if you make overtricks. 1nt also leaves more room for partner to investigate. Rebid 1nt or raise partner's major in priority to rebidding a 5 cd suit. You can rebid you minor if 6 cd suit.

Raising to 2h is possible, as Cyberyeti recommends, but with a strongish doubleton in clubs I wouldn't do it. Change the clubs to xx / Jx / Ax and I like the raise more.

Another problem is that 3nt is cold, you should never go down if that was the layout. you have 5 heart 2club and spade, just have to establish diamond for 9th trick.
Or if they lead spade just duck it and you have 9th trick.

I agree with pretty much all of this. The reason for bidding 2 rather than 1N is that if partner puts down say Jxx, KQxxx, Kx, xxx you're going down in 1N where you could have been making 2. Admittedly opps are potentially making lots of tricks in clubs (or spades if they can find the 4-3 fit), but they may not be able to enter the auction.
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#5 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 03:05

One of the cornerstones of most modern bidding systems is that hand type takes precedence over such factors as whether a suit is stopped. When you hold a 5332 hand with a 5 card minor it is balanced and needs to be treated as such. That means that the book rebid after partner's 1 response is 1NT. Over this Responder can bid 2, Opener can show the 3 card heart support by 3 and the better game reached.

Other have suggested a 2 rebid on this hand. There are some good reasons for preferring a 3 card raise on many hands. However I think it is probably above N/B level to be doing this with balanced hand types. Therefore I would recommend the 1NT rebid approach. To recap:-

1 - 1
1NT - 2
3 - 4

One further point, in the original auction Responder's 1 response followed by 2 rebid is known as a Responder's reverse. This shows a strong hand with hearts longer than spades. It would therefore have been better if Opener had supported hearts at this point rather than bidding 2NT. This sequence would ordinarily show 6+ diamonds and exactly 3 hearts. Here it would have given you a second chance to have reached 4 though.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#6 User is offline   perry93 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 07:19

Thank you all. First, i open 1 with at least 4cards (1 could be a doubleton), so my error was bigger xD.

What if my p has only 4 hearts when he bids 1? I fit the suit with only 3 cards?

1 - 1
1NT ---> shows i have 12-14(15) with less than 4 spades and i don't have 4 hearts, right? so why N should bid 2? ok it shows a reverse, how many hcp? maybe 2 shows 5 hearts instead of 4?

Thank you very much, i love this forum! :D
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 08:28

View Postperry93, on 2012-May-04, 07:19, said:

Thank you all. First, i open 1 with at least 4cards (1 could be a doubleton), so my error was bigger xD.

What if my p has only 4 hearts when he bids 1? I fit the suit with only 3 cards?

1 - 1
1NT ---> shows i have 12-14(15) with less than 4 spades and i don't have 4 hearts, right? so why N should bid 2? ok it shows a reverse, how many hcp? maybe 2 shows 5 hearts instead of 4?

Thank you very much, i love this forum! :D

I have no idea what the standard arrangements are if you play a strong no trump, so I'll let others answer that.

Playing a 4-3 fit is not necessarily bad (often 2 in a 4-3 will play better than 1N), and 1-1-2-2N/3N is strongly suggestive of only 3 hearts.
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#8 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 11:16

View Postperry93, on 2012-May-04, 07:19, said:

Thank you all. First, i open 1 with at least 4cards (1 could be a doubleton), so my error was bigger xD.

What if my p has only 4 hearts when he bids 1? I fit the suit with only 3 cards?


If he has 4 cd hearts only:
- if he has strong, invitational or GF hand, he may try 2nt or 3nt next, and you can raise/pass rather than returning to hearts. He should be aware you may have only 3 and not blast to 4h if 3nt is also reasonable bid with his hand for choice of games.
- if he is weak, he gets to play 4-3 fit, which is not the end of the world, often makes with careful play.

Tips for playing in 4-3 fit:
- try to avoid ruffing in the 4 cd hand if reasonably possible. If there is an unavoidable loser (or a winner, for that matter!) in a side suit consider effects of discarding it instead of ruffing.
- the opp's trumps are more likely to break 4-2 than 3-3. If you can play in such a way that it makes when 4-2, try for that. Play for 3-3 if you have no chance if they are 4-2.
- establish side suit(s) early, often the play is such that you draw 2 trumps, leave both you and one opp with 2 trumps (his higher, else you might draw them), then run your side suit, tapping opp (forcing them to ruff) and leaving you with trump control (more trumps). You want to avoid the opposite situation where they tap you, and run their side suit. If the trumps were 3-3 all along, each opp will ruff separately, but it's the same as if one opp had both (you might have made more tricks playing them for 3-3, but would have gone down if they were 4-2 and played them yourself, and 4-2 is more common).
- in some cases none of the above tactics will really work, but a crossruff can scramble you home, with enough shape and good enough trump spots.

If you are in France you may want to avoid 3 cd raises, as I understand the French std really wants 4 for the raise. American experts like to raise on 3 cds more often.

Quote

1 - 1
1NT ---> shows i have 12-14(15) with less than 4 spades and i don't have 4 hearts, right? so why N should bid 2? ok it shows a reverse, how many hcp? maybe 2 shows 5 hearts instead of 4?


This is stylistic; some people don't always bid 1s ahead of 1nt, so spade fit is still possible. This is perhaps more common playing a weak nt where the 1nt rebid shows 15-17, however.

Whether North should bid 2 spades depends on whether opener can have spades, and also if you are playing some sort of conventional checkback mechanism (artificial forcing 2c bid), that most advanced players play, but many beginners will not. The default, with no conventions agreed, is that after 1nt rebid, 2 of a lower suit by responder is non-forcing and natural. So the only way for North to force is to jump, or bid a higher ranking suit, like spades here, to find out about the 3 cd heart fit.

But pretty much 100% of better players play either or both 2c and 2d as artificial conventions, looking for heart fit among other things, in various different schemes like: NMF (new minor forcing), checkback stayman, two-way checkback stayman, two-way puppet checkback, XYZ, transfer checkback. It's among the first 10 or so useful conventions that you should eventually learn.
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#9 User is offline   Lesh18 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 15:22

I have a similar question so I'll post it here:

South and North are dealt these hands (west and east just pass all the way along):



South opens the bidding with 1 (with 18 pts. he is too strong for a 1NT I guess), North bids a negative 1NT (6-9 pts., no support and/or cannot make another bid), now what does South rebid? Will he keep bidding low and bid 2 or go directly for majors and bid 2? Can he do it only with a 3-card support? Is not 4-card support pre-requisite here?

Thanks
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#10 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 16:23

View Postperry93, on 2012-May-03, 14:59, said:

Hey guys, here is the hand

Posted Image

I went 3NT-1 ... Correct was 4. What was the correct bid?

' The emperor's new clothes ' ....

Am I the only one who does not see the hands ?
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#11 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 16:30

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-May-04, 16:23, said:

Am I the only one who does not see hands ?


No.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#12 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 19:47

View PostLesh18, on 2012-May-04, 15:22, said:

now what does South rebid?

2NT in American bidding systems.

Quote

Will he keep bidding low and bid 2 or go directly for majors and bid 2?

2 is right out, as that definitely, 100% shows a 4-card heart suit. 2 is also supposed to show a 4-card suit, but when you play that a 2NT rebid shows 18-19 and you don't open 1NT with a 5-card major, you might be forced to bid a 3-card minor with 16-17 HCP. This is more of an intermediate-advanced concept, however.

Quote

Can he do it only with a 3-card support? Is not 4-card support pre-requisite here?

Support? You can only have support for partner when partner has shown a suit, which isn't the case here.

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-May-04, 16:23, said:

Am I the only one who does not see the hands ?

I can't see the picture in the first hand either.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
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#13 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 21:50

To see picture on first hand, you may have to right click on the text that says "posted image", and select "view image".
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#14 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 23:13

View PostStephen Tu, on 2012-May-04, 21:50, said:

To see picture on first hand, you may have to right click on the text that says "posted image", and select "view image".

Mmm... We may have thought of that already.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#15 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2012-May-04, 23:42

I was able to see it after replying to the post and pasting the image URL to another tab.
2NT is the right rebid, showing a hand that is:
a) balanced. Responder may rebid 1NT on an imbalanced hand, especially after a 1 opening. Since 2NT suggests playing in 3NT, opener should guarantee at least his hand is balanced, similar to opening 1NT himself.
b) Strong (18/19 HCP). Responder could be a weak 6-point hand and you don't have a fit, so opener's hand should have a lot of high cards to suggest playing in NT. The reason for the point limit is that with a stronger balanced hand, opener would've opened 2NT or 2.
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#16 User is offline   perry93 

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Posted 2012-May-05, 05:23

After a forcing bid you can bid your 3-card-minor-suit! What if you have a 5-3-3-2 hand, and partner bids 2 after you open, game forcing?

For example:

1 - 2
? ---> you can't pass, have only 2 clubs and 3 diamods, too weak for 2NT. ---> 2!

I'm not an expert, but i think it's right!



Quote

Am I the only one who does not see the hands ?

try here http://s16.postimage..._a_22_43_25.png
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#17 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2012-May-05, 05:36

Now stephen told me how to see the hand I can point few things:

-Rebidding 2m with 5332 shape is a very big mistake. Not only because it is wrong on textbook. It is because of strategy, 1NT rebid is soooooooo good that you want to force hands into it. Many succesful players rebid 1NT with 6322 and 5422 shapes sometimes, even with singleton on partner´s suit some people do. 1NT>>>>>2m. Perhaps it helps you an old rule. With 1NT rebid you are showing 2 spades, 2 hearts, 4 diamonds and 2 clubs for a total 10 cards. With 2 rebid you only show 6. 1NT is much more accurate.

-3 card support for partner´s 1M response takes preference over stoppers, in fact as your third bid it must take preference over anything, it has the top priority on the list.

-There are 2 big "catch-all" bids on standard 5 card major that you must know: one is the 1NT response to 1M opening wich contains anythign with 6-9 (or 10) points, without support (and without spades if 1 opened). The other one is the 2M rebid after the auction 1M-2x. 2M rebid means nothing, just denies the ability to make a more descriptive bid because the lack of strenght, shape or suit quality.
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#18 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-May-05, 08:48

View PostStephen Tu, on 2012-May-04, 21:50, said:

To see picture on first hand, you may have to right click on the text that says "posted image", and select "view image".

Thanks.... that did it .
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#19 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2012-May-05, 10:35

View Postperry93, on 2012-May-05, 05:23, said:

After a forcing bid you can bid your 3-card-minor-suit! What if you have a 5-3-3-2 hand, and partner bids 2 after you open, game forcing?

For example:

1 - 2
? ---> you can't pass, have only 2 clubs and 3 diamods, too weak for 2NT. ---> 2!

I'm not an expert, but i think it's right!


It's common to bid 3 cd minor suit after a forcing *1NT* response to a major (1h-1nt, 1s-1nt), a component of playing 2/1 bids as *game forcing* after major openings.

It is *uncommon*, however, to rebid 3 cd 2d after 2c. The majority play 2*S* as the catchall bid without suitability to bid 2nt, and would expect 4 cds for 2d.
It is certainly *playable* to have 2d as an artificial catchall (don't even have to promise 3!), and perhaps better (low "catchall" bids are usually a sound way to play), but it requires a special agreement. If playing 2d as a catchall over 2c, don't have it promise 3, (you'd want to bid it on some 5323s, some other hands also), then you can have 2s promise 6 cds and 2nt can possibly be used for other things.

Also what is "too weak for 2nt" depends on how strong 2c is. If 2c creates a GF, there is no hand "too weak for 2nt", unless you are say playing a weak-nt style where 2nt shows a strong NT opening. The usual reason for bidding the catchall with a flat hand would be that either hearts or diamonds are unstopped. Either that or you are using the lower catchall to allow 2nt to be a stronger range or have different meaning than flat hand.
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#20 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2012-May-05, 14:57

Hi Perry and welcome to the N/B forum. I believe that you are Italian based on the hand diagram and their common 1=4 and that English isn't your primary language.
South made two clear mistakes on this auction.

1) South should not rebid his 5 card suit and should want to have 6 to rebid. Many Standard American players would prefer south to rebid 1NT rather than 2 with only 3 card support. I am not sure what Standard Italian would rebid here but I think it is normally 1NT. A 1NT rebid shows a balanced hand too weak for a 15-17 1NT rebid..ie 12-14 HCP just like south holds. 1NT also for many of us should deny holding 4.

2)South should not bid 2NT after North reverses into 2 showing a strong responding hand that is for many of us game forcing. Now South should rebid 3 showing 3 card support and North can carry onto 4 or decide to play 3NT inspite of the 8 card fit.
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