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ATB...get to 6C

Poll: ATB...get to 6C (24 member(s) have cast votes)

Who fault ?

  1. Mostly North (2 votes [8.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  2. Mostly South (21 votes [87.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 87.50%

  3. About even (1 votes [4.17%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.17%

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#1 User is offline   jmcw 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 09:20



MATCHPOINTS who's fault
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#2 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 09:21

South underbid arguably the second time and clearly the third time. North seems to have bid fine.
"What's the big rebid problem? After 1♦ - 1♠, I can rebid 1NT, 2♠, or 2♦."
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#3 User is offline   jmcw 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 09:25

 lalldonn, on 2012-April-08, 09:21, said:

South underbid arguably the second time and clearly the third time. North seems to have bid fine.


Yep, I think you're right. I was the culprit.
I think my 3rd bid should be 3♠ or possibly 4♣
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#4 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 09:29

I think it would help to know the bidding system in use e.g. what's 1♦-2♥? Was 1♦-1♥-2♣-2♥ forcing?

Also I think this belongs in I/A, not General Bridge Discussion.
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#5 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 09:37

Sure, South is the underbidder who must take the responsibility for the part score contract. Realistically, I would be delighted to arrive at 5C, or 4H..6 wasn't gonna happen.

4H would get a lot of matchpoints.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#6 User is offline   jmcw 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 09:38

 mgoetze, on 2012-April-08, 09:29, said:

I think it would help to know the bidding system in use e.g. what's 1♦-2♥? Was 1♦-1♥-2♣-2♥ forcing?

Also I think this belongs in I/A, not General Bridge Discussion.



1m - 2♥ = weak
1♦ - 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ = NF

why I/A ?
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#7 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 09:45

 jmcw, on 2012-April-08, 09:38, said:

1m - 2♥ = weak
1♦ - 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ = NF

OK, I don't know that bidding system, can't comment, sorry.

Quote

why I/A ?

Because it's not very general.
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#8 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 10:09

 jmcw, on 2012-April-08, 09:38, said:

1m - 2♥ = weak
1♦ - 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ = NF

 mgoetze, on 2012-April-08, 09:45, said:

OK, I don't know that bidding system, can't comment, sorry.

I don't believe you really mean that. Even if it isn't your style, certainly you have run across 2H responses showing a weaker hand than the floor for a 1H response. And, I am equally certain you know 1♦-1♥-2♣-2♥ frequently ends the auction for the majority of pairs.
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#9 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 10:41

North literally showed 3154 with 17-18 points with his 2N bid.
"What's the big rebid problem? After 1♦ - 1♠, I can rebid 1NT, 2♠, or 2♦."
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#10 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 11:22

And since that is what North actually had, the only way he could share fault would be if they somehow had agreed 3C was forcing and he forgot. Even then, South would get blame for his part in making that agreement :rolleyes:
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#11 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 14:05

 jmcw, on 2012-April-08, 09:20, said:



MATCHPOINTS who's fault

I think they can get there with an aggressive splinter bid by South ( admittedly resulting ):
1D - 1H
2C - 3S! ( Reverse-jump Splinter for ♣ )
4C! ( Minorwood-RKC ) - 4S ( 3rd-step = 2 - ♣Q )
5D ( Kickback for Kings ) - 6C ( no outside Kings )
Don Stenmark
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( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#12 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2012-April-08, 15:57

South 80%.

You are unlikely to reach slam, especially at matchpoints so you want to be in hearts. I would have rebid 3♥ instead of 2♥ with South based on the heart texture and club fit. I also prefer 3♥ to 2NT with North, which would have ensured you reach game. But 3♣ is a clear underbid and the worst call.
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#13 User is offline   Dark Widow 

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Posted 2012-April-10, 02:34

 jmcw, on 2012-April-08, 09:38, said:

1m - 2♥ = weak
1♦ - 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ = NF

If I were playing this (and I sometimes do) then I would like to agree that the direct 2♥ response showed a max of around 7 and the delayed 2♥ can then be used for about 8-10. If that agreement were in place then North can afford to be more aggressive here. Perhaps something like 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♣ - 3NT - 4♥ would now be possible.
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#14 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2012-April-10, 02:59

 lalldonn, on 2012-April-08, 10:41, said:

North literally showed 3154 with 17-18 points with his 2N bid.

Even if he did, I prefer 2♠ over 2♥ with the North hand. I would have bid 2NT with the same distribution, but the ♠Q instead of the ♥Q.
I would not pass 3♣ either, but preference back to 3♥ (almost worth 4♥ when playing weak jumps over 1♦).
The ♥Q is a big card in this context and the North hand is great for a high level suit contract and worth more. Points are not everything.
Nevertheless South must take a bigger share of the blame, but I do not agree that North is blameless, particularly not when playing weak jumps over 1♦.
Poor hand evaluation on both sides.

Rainer Herrmann
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#15 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2012-April-10, 03:00

deleted
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#16 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-April-10, 06:39

Good hand for methods i like. Responder bids and intermediate js to 2H. Opener bids 2NT as check. Responder bids 4C azs good side 4-card clubs and maximum. The auction could be five bids.
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#17 User is offline   jmcw 

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Posted 2012-April-10, 07:34

 lalldonn, on 2012-April-08, 10:41, said:

North literally showed 3154 with 17-18 points with his 2N bid.


Perhaps this is expert treatment, but I don't get it.

With 3154 why not 2♠,
then 2NT is 2254,
and 3♥1354


 rhm, on 2012-April-10, 02:59, said:

Even if he did, I prefer 2♠ over 2♥ with the North hand. I would have bid 2NT with the same distribution, but the ♠Q instead of the ♥Q.
I would not pass 3♣ either, but preference back to 3♥ (almost worth 4♥ when playing weak jumps over 1♦).
The ♥Q is a big card in this context and the North hand is great for a high level suit contract and worth more. Points are not everything.
Nevertheless South must take a bigger share of the blame, but I do not agree that North is blameless, particularly not when playing weak jumps over 1♦.
Poor hand evaluation on both sides.

Rainer Herrmann


Can South ever have only 5♥ maybe 4513
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#18 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2012-April-11, 04:24

 jmcw, on 2012-April-10, 07:34, said:

Can South ever have only 5♥ maybe 4513

Would you bid 2♥ over 2♣ with a 5 card suit? Opener will often pass with a singleton or void and a minimum opener.
If you do, your 5 card must be extraordinary. I would expect ♥AKJTx.
Would you takeout 2NT into 3♣ with a 3 card club suit, where opener has very likely only 4 cards? Why?
If responder is weak with a 5 card heart suit and can not stand 2NT opposite 17-18 why did he not quit over 2♣?
Bidding over 2♣ with a weak hand and only a mediocre 5 card suit is not compatible with weak jump responses.
If responder has values, why do you want to stop in 3♣? One of these games 5♣, 4♥ or 3NT must be odds on.

Rainer Herrmann
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#19 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2012-April-11, 04:56

 jmcw, on 2012-April-10, 07:34, said:

With 3154 why not 2♠,
then 2NT is 2254,
and 3♥1354

With 1354 and extra values, you're worth 4♥. With 1354 and a minimum, I think it would be normal to have raised to 2♥. With 2254 we probably belong in hearts, and we'd almost never want to play in precisely 2NT, so it works to raise immediately.

That allows us two bids to deal with a strong 3154, so we may as well use both of them. There's a big difference between ♠AQx ♥x and ♠Axx ♥Q.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#20 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2012-April-12, 03:07

 gnasher, on 2012-April-11, 04:56, said:

With 1354 and extra values, you're worth 4♥. With 1354 and a minimum, I think it would be normal to have raised to 2♥. With 2254 we probably belong in hearts, and we'd almost never want to play in precisely 2NT, so it works to raise immediately.

That allows us two bids to deal with a strong 3154, so we may as well use both of them. There's a big difference between ♠AQx ♥x and ♠Axx ♥Q.

Agreed, and I rather raise 2♥ than bid 2NT with ♠Axx ♥Q, but 2♠ followed by 3♥ describes this holding perfectly and gives us a better chance to select correctly between ♥ and notrumps.

Rainer Herrmann
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