Director's ruling on slow play
#1
Posted 2012-March-30, 01:54
In our bridge club we have a clock that clearly times each round. 15 minutes is allowed for two boards and 21 minutes for three boards. We have a club ruling that states that if the opening lead has not yet been made with three minutes to go then the board is not played (we do not play late boards). The Director stops the board from begin played because there is not sufficient time to play the hand. I must make it clear that if the opening lead has been made and playing the hand has started then they are allowed to continue. However, if they are still bidding then the board is cancelled and the Director has to decide the appropiate penalty depending who is at fault. It now appears that this is not legal or so we are told. Appparently if they have started to bid a hand then they must be allowed to continue. Surely this cannot be correct. You would have bridge games finishing at 2am as the slow players take control of the timing.
Summary.
As a club do we have the authority to stop a board being played if there is less than three minutes to go and the players are still bidding the hand? We will let the hand be played if the opening lead has been made before the three minute mark.
Would appreciate your comments
#2
Posted 2012-March-30, 03:55
Think of it like this: The opponents bid to 6♥. The clock says 3 minutes and 10 seconds to go in the round. You hold KQJ in a side suit, which is the obvious lead.
A) You are playing against the worst pair of the club. If the slam is good everybody will have bid it and make it with an overtrick. You will get a decent result on the board. If the slam is bad, it is likely to go down and you will also get a good result on the board. Your king will hit the table like lightning.
B) You are playing against the experts in the club. They have taken some time to bid to the slam and you can see that they know it is a good one that the rest of the club won't bid. You can expect a very bad result if you play this hand. 3:03, 3:02, 3:01, 3:00 BEEEEP, 2:59... "Sorry guys".
Tricks like this should not be possible.
Once players have taken the cards out of the board, let them play it. If you are afraid that the game will run late, there is a simple remedy: Penalties. If a pair is somewhat late, warn them that the next time they will get a penalty. When the next time comes, tell them that they get a 10% of a board penalty and that the next time it will be 20%. If a pair is seriously late, penalize them right away.
Rik
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The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#3
Posted 2012-March-30, 04:25
swanway, on 2012-March-30, 01:54, said:
It is correct, for the reasons given above, but your fears are unfounded. You can take a board away before it's been started, and that's what you do when pairs get behind. You can alternatively fine persistently slow players.
When a table is late finishing, tell them that if they haven't caught up by the next round you will take away a board or fine them.
London UK
#4
Posted 2012-March-30, 08:39
Merseyside England UK
EBL TD
Currently at home
Visiting IBLF from time to time
<webjak666@gmail.com>
#5
Posted 2012-March-30, 08:53
bluejak, on 2012-March-30, 08:39, said:
I'm sure many players would find it frustrating, knowing that they are capable of playing a board in four minutes in order to catch up, to not be allowed to do so.
London UK
#6
Posted 2012-March-30, 09:03
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#7
Posted 2012-March-30, 09:11
gordontd, on 2012-March-30, 08:53, said:
I would, certainly. But not as frustrating as when the opponents reached 3NT on a misfitting 22 count with no play and I was told the board was cancelled because we had run out of time because the opponents had been late coming to the table.
The only good thing that happened is that my strong letter of complaint to the club committee led to the practice of stopping a board halfway being banned.
Merseyside England UK
EBL TD
Currently at home
Visiting IBLF from time to time
<webjak666@gmail.com>
#8
Posted 2012-March-30, 10:05
However, we also allow late plays, but only one per pair.
Your fears of games lasting into the night are unfounded. We have some habitually slow pairs (one because they're very good players and spend time working out the best action, others because they're poor and often unsure what to bid/play), but games never end more than about 10 minutes behind schedule. And it doesn't delay the results very much -- we often have a playing director, so we don't start entering scores until the last round is over. The late plays take place while the rest of the scores are being entered.
#9
Posted 2012-March-30, 14:21
#10
Posted 2012-March-30, 14:44
I cannot understand a club pulling a board in the middle of a hand.
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#11
Posted 2012-March-30, 16:29
Phil, on 2012-March-30, 14:44, said:
I cannot understand a club pulling a board in the middle of a hand.
Pulling a board after the players have looked at their cards is illegal, period (See Law 8B)
I have sometimes found it favourable to advice late players that they are not playing a fair game.
When they look astonished at me I explain that they to their own advantage are using time that has not been available to their competitors. Players that have some pride in playing a fair game usually take the message.
#12
Posted 2012-March-30, 19:06
pran, on 2012-March-30, 16:29, said:
I have sometimes found it favourable to advice late players that they are not playing a fair game.
When they look astonished at me I explain that they to their own advantage are using time that has not been available to their competitors. Players that have some pride in playing a fair game usually take the message.
#13
Posted 2012-March-30, 19:08
#14
Posted 2012-March-30, 19:54
Chris3875, on 2012-March-30, 19:08, said:
There's more to it than that. The director has the authority to cancel the play of a board, but only when the laws allow him to do so. The director does not have the power to cancel a board already started (which means any one hand is removed from the board Law 17A) unless it was started in defiance of his instructions (see Law 91).
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#15
Posted 2012-March-31, 02:38
Chris3875, on 2012-March-30, 19:08, said:
That is
Law 8 B 2 said:
The Director may not cancel nor postpone the play of a board after a player has taken cards from that board.
However law 8B2 allows him to cancel (for cause) the play before play on a board begins also when play on that board was originally postponed.
#16
Posted 2012-March-31, 04:28
If the last moment a TD can cancel the board is defined by the start of the auction period as in Law 17A, I do think there is a practical problem. In a club without an automatic timer, the TD might not call out "please do not start any new boards" if it looks like everyone is about to finish. But occasionally a table might have got a whole board behind and a busy TD might only realise this when they start to reach for their cards. It seems better to allow the board to be cancelled at least until the first call has been made.
#17
Posted 2012-March-31, 21:59
dcrc2, on 2012-March-31, 04:28, said:
But if the dealer suspects from his hand that this may be a poor board for them (don't ask me how he can tell this -- maybe he has the MSC death hand), he could go into the tank waiting for the TD to announce "don't start any new boards".
#18
Posted 2012-April-01, 04:18
barmar, on 2012-March-31, 21:59, said:
No, if you've taken your cards out of the board when the announcement comes, then you are in time and should continue. But an announcement for "don't start any new boards" is not the same situation as a TD actually coming over to your table to stop play. I think the latter should be allowed to happen until the first call is made. This is solely to avoid the situation where a TD thinks that all the tables are finishing and is about to call the move, but then he suddenly notices a table picking up their cards for another board. If he had realised they had another board to play, it would have been cancelled already. (Of course if the TD gets into this situation then he has made a mistake by not realising what was going on, but it seems better to apologise to the table for this error and step in to cancel the board, rather than having to make everyone else wait.)
#19
Posted 2012-April-01, 06:14
dcrc2, on 2012-April-01, 04:18, said:
This would require a change in the laws. We have another forum for that discussion.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#20
Posted 2012-April-01, 06:37
blackshoe, on 2012-April-01, 06:14, said:
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Possibly. Though while I've often heard it said that it's illegal to cancel the board in the middle of the auction, I'm not entirely sure which Laws this is supposed to be derived from. (I don't find your or Sven's references convincing, sorry.) So it is unclear to me whether or not 17A provides the time limit. I hope it doesn't.