[straube]

My latest idea...

P-0-5 or many hands with 4+ hearts or 3-3-3-4 specific
dbl-4+ spades OR GF with 5 spades and no heart stopper
1S-4+ diamonds
1N-5+ spades, forcing
2C-NFB, 5+ clubs
2D-clubs, f
2H-6+ spades, GI+
2S-5/4+ minors
2N-natural, inv
3m-weak
3H-stopper, demands 3N
3S-weak
3N-stopper, positional for 3N

In more detail...

P-aside from bad hands or GF hands, many competitive/invitational hands with the enemy suit do much better by passing initially. Basically, one has to think about not endplaying oneself in the bidding.
If responder has lots of hearts, there will likely not be an advance and opener can reopen and describe his hand more easily. So with length in the enemy suit, take your time. With shortness, start describing.

dbl-usually 4 spades, but I did think about the issue of wrong-siding NT with a GF hand and five spades. Plus we presently have no meaning for double and then a bid of spades....so now it can say that
responder has exactly 5 spades but no stopper and that he intends to force game (or perhaps 4m)

1S-showing 4 diamonds. I considered that awm thought that showing 3 diamonds wasn't useful. I also think that if responder has something like 3433 or 3334 he can pass without too much fear of losing the part score battle. These aren't great patterns anyway. 1S can be prelude to all sorts of things. 1D (1H) 1S P 1N P 2C needs to be forcing...and it probably needs to handle both 4/5 as well as 5/4 in the minors.
One spade is also how one would show a GF with 4S/5D.

1N-showing 5+ spades. I considered Zelandakh's idea of having 1N be nf, but I had difficulty with the 5 spade hands that wanted to force. I also don't want to bid 1N nf with a 5/5 or 5/6 hand and I think I'd have to do this.

2C-NFB. Could have 5 little. We're low. Perhaps they opened 1C natural at other tables.

2D-forcing with clubs. I don't think this needs to be GF, but it could I suppose. I think this should deny diamonds (unless maybe 4D/6C) because a 1S response just leaves so much more room. 2D really hinders our ability to find diamond fits anyway, so opener's "raise" of 3D ought to show some pretty good diamonds.

2H-GI+ with spades. I don't like the weak/strong that many suggest. I want to empower opener to do something...bid 3S or 4S for example. Show a 5m/5m hand in a forcing way. Bid 3N. Splinter even.

2S-5/4+ minors. I wouldn't mind making this a WJS, but I need the bid for these minor-suited hands. This leaves 2N available when opener is 3/3 in the minors and wants a preference.

Comments welcome.

[straube]

I adjusted it a little so that 2C now shows constructive or GI with clubs and 2D shows GF in clubs. I tallied 100 results for this but only looked at responding hands with 6+ hcps

P-13 hands with 6+ points, common patterns were 3424, 3433, 3334. Also 5C hands with less than constructive values
dbl-31 showing 4 spades (the GF with 5 spades and no stopper came up once)
1S-22 showing 4 diamonds
1N-15 showing 5 spades
2C-3 showing constructive or GI club hand
2D-2 showing GF club hand
2H-7 showing GI+ with six spades
2S-3 showing 5/4+ minors competitive
2N-2 showing GI with stopper...often clubs, else start with 1S
3H-2 showing GF with stopper

So I've a mind to switch 2D and 2H around. Anyone liking this or still critical?

[akhare]

 straube, on 2012-February-25, 12:39, said:

I adjusted it a little so that 2C now shows constructive or GI with clubs and 2D shows GF in clubs. I tallied 100 results for this but only looked at responding hands with 6+ hcps

P-13 hands with 6+ points, common patterns were 3424, 3433, 3334. Also 5C hands with less than constructive values
dbl-31 showing 4 spades (the GF with 5 spades and no stopper came up once)
1S-22 showing 4 diamonds
1N-15 showing 5 spades
2C-3 showing constructive or GI club hand
2D-2 showing GF club hand
2H-7 showing GI+ with six spades
2S-3 showing 5/4+ minors competitive
2N-2 showing GI with stopper...often clubs, else start with 1S
3H-2 showing GF with stopper

So I've a mind to switch 2D and 2H around. Anyone liking this or still critical?

The central question boils down to whether it's really important to show 5 spades immediately.

As Zelandakh, awm and others have noted, the 5 spades bid seems to come at too great a cost and given its lack of frequency and limited utility (it's specific use is in the 1D - (1H) - <5 spades> - (3H) auction), the merits are really debatable..

[awm]

There is some question as to how you are bidding good hands with 5+♣ and 4♠. I've found it's often better to show the clubs first, in case you have a big fit there. You can normally introduce spades later if necessary even if hearts are raised (since spades are higher than hearts). If you start with double showing four spades on these hands, clubs can often be buried after a heart raise. For example:

1♦ - 1♥ - X (four spades) - 3♥
Pass - Pass - ???

You can double again, but partner won't envision a 6♣/4♠ hand and might bid 3NT when clubs is better, or rebid a five-card diamond suit. You can bid 4♣, but this bypasses 3NT. Much easier to bid:

1♦ - 1♥ - (some club showing bid) - 3♥
Pass - Pass - 3♠

This describes the whole hand, and partner can still bid 3NT if that seems best.

Anyway, it seems evident from the numbers you gave that something is off. Hands with 6+♠ and inv+ must be less frequent than hands with 6+♣ of any strength, yet your frequencies are the other way. This suggests that you are not showing clubs on some significant portion of these club hands (i.e. bidding double or 1♠ on 6-4 hands) which may not be the best approach.

[straube]

I've been restricting overcaller to four spades. Since both opener and overcaller are restricted to four spades, the likelihood of responder having spades is significantly higher than him having clubs. This has factored into my wanting to separate four from five spades.

Also, some hands with clubs also have diamonds (1S) and some hands with clubs I tallied as 2N (GI with a stopper). Some weak hands with 4+D/5C were tallied in 2S.

I've counted 4S/5C invitational as double and I've counted 4S/5C GF as 2D (which shows clubs).