[Antrax]

Matchpoints.

♠Axxx
♥AKJx
♦Jx
♣Axx

Partner deals and opens 1♣, opponents are silent. Over your 1M, partner rebids 2♣.

[Cyberyeti]

Antrax, on 2011-December-21, 02:50, said:

Matchpoints.

♠Axxx
♥AKJx
♦Jx
♣Axx

Partner deals and opens 1♣, opponents are silent. Over your 1M, partner rebids 2♣.

These hands are horrible, which is why some people me included play an artificial 2♦ relay over 1♣-1♥-2♣, known as a Bourke relay after its creator.

Your choices are 2♠ suggesting a 5th heart you don't have, 4♣ if you play it as forcing, but that takes out 3N, or to agree that 3♦ is in the nature of a "3rd suit forcing" bid, but this doesn't help you so much over 1♦-1♥-2♦.

[Antrax]

4♣ would be forcing with SI in clubs, but as you can imagine I prefer not to bypass 3NT (also, we currently have no method to stop in 4NT if NT is the spot to be - our methods over minor-suit fits are still pretty weak).
3♦ over 2♣ sounds interesting. So 2♦ is natural 5-4 (we bid up the line), and 3♦ is "bid NT with diamond stopper"?

[helene_t]

Without the Bourke relay or a similar gadget you have to bid 2♠. Now partner has a problem if he has three hearts and accepts an invite since 3♥ is probably nonforcing while 4♥ may be a 4-3 fit. Probably easiest to play 2♠ as a game force for now. Or play that after the reverse, the only partscore you can stop in is 3♣.

[mike777]

Antrax, on 2011-December-21, 02:50, said:

Matchpoints.

♠Axxx
♥AKJx
♦Jx
♣Axx

Partner deals and opens 1♣, opponents are silent. Over your 1M, partner rebids 2♣.

2d art and gf is pretty normal.

then 3c gf over pards rebid is pretty normal.

[Cyberyeti]

Antrax, on 2011-December-21, 04:25, said:

4♣ would be forcing with SI in clubs, but as you can imagine I prefer not to bypass 3NT (also, we currently have no method to stop in 4NT if NT is the spot to be - our methods over minor-suit fits are still pretty weak).
3♦ over 2♣ sounds interesting. So 2♦ is natural 5-4 (we bid up the line), and 3♦ is "bid NT with diamond stopper"?

I'd recommend taking the 2♦ relay approach, and if you do that there's no need for it to be GF. Also it has the corollary that 1♣-1♠-2♣-2♥ is 5-5 and bad because you haven't bid 2♦ (certainly the way we bid).

3♦ is a redundant bid unless you're using it as a mini splinter, so it can just be used as a random force if you choose not to do this, and 2♦ becomes 5-4 F1.

Also, if you're forming a regular partnership, get something other than 4N agreed as your ace ask when in a minor, this will make your slam bidding a lot simpler.

[Antrax]

Yeah, I mentioned in the OP we're well aware of this problem. We're still discussing what to adopt, so currently we're defaulting to "prepared BW" (= be prepared to go to the six level opposite 2) and cuebids. It doesn't work great, but it works better than adopting something haphazardly would, for us.
Your original post mentioned 3♦ over 2♣, I understand that was a typo?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

You want to use something like the Bourke Relay ( I call it "cheapest new suit forcing after Opener's rebid of the minor " ) to distinguish between invitational and game force 3minor bids. This is analogous to NMF ( if opener were to have rebid 1NT instead of 2m ) and keeps the bidding at a reasonable levels w/o all that jumping which usually takes you past 3NT -- something that you most likely do not want to do.

1m - 1M
1NT - 2om
2M/2NT - 3m which now is GF. shows m support, and cancels interest in M as trumps

whereas
1m - 1M
1NT - 3m = invitational ( the 2nd way to bid 3m )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Analogously:
1C - 1H
2C - 2D!
2H/2NT - 3C = GF

whereas:
1C - 1H
2C - 3C = invitational

[aguahombre]

I didn't know about Bourke, but we have used 2D as a game forcing "noise" on this auction for a very long time, with just sort of common sense follow-up structure. First priority for opener would be 3-card heart support, but unless the 2D bidder then bids 3H they aren't trump.

With this hand we could easily bid 2D. If partner doesn't bid 2H or 2NT, she won't have a diamond stopper (but could still have a stiff or void diamond), and we will be going for the club contract (game or slam).

[Antrax]

Just to be sure, in the auction 1♦-1♥-2♦, 2♠ would be the relay?

[Cyberyeti]

Antrax, on 2011-December-21, 07:59, said:

Yeah, I mentioned in the OP we're well aware of this problem. We're still discussing what to adopt, so currently we're defaulting to "prepared BW" (= be prepared to go to the six level opposite 2) and cuebids. It doesn't work great, but it works better than adopting something haphazardly would, for us.
Your original post mentioned 3♦ over 2♣, I understand that was a typo?

No, what I was suggesting is something that gets "invented" in various acol auctions where you jump in a minor suit just to force and it comes with no guarantees.

An example, you hold something like Q65432, AKx, AK, Kx, playing with somebody who plays much older style Acol than you're used to.

Partner opens 1♣, you don't fancy 2♠ because of the suit quality so bid 1♠, partner bids 2♣, now what. The answer apparently is that you bid 3♦. I bid 3♠ and that wasn't as forcing as I'd hoped

[Cyberyeti]

Antrax, on 2011-December-21, 09:40, said:

Just to be sure, in the auction 1♦-1♥-2♦, 2♠ would be the relay?

You can use 2♥ or 2♠, we use 2♥.

[aguahombre]

Antrax, on 2011-December-21, 09:40, said:

Just to be sure, in the auction 1♦-1♥-2♦, 2♠ would be the relay?

You were probably asking Cyber (which he answered), but I will reply anyway.

This sequence takes special care, in our agreements, because of the space consumed. 2S is a game forcing noise, but the follow-ups must change to allow responder room to deny 5+ hearts; therefore opener doesn't bid 3H/2S with 3-card support. 2NT would show a spade card/2♠, but 3♣ becomes a new noise to find out if responder is coming in Diamonds or checking for an 8-card heart fit vs 3NT.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Antrax, on 2011-December-21, 09:40, said:

Just to be sure, in the auction 1♦-1♥-2♦, 2♠ would be the relay?

Bourke uses 2♠ :

After
1♦ -1♥
2♦ - ??
Opener will not hold 4 spades, so Responder's relay is 2♠.

http://www.freewebs....BourkeRelay.htm

[Cyberyeti]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-December-21, 10:44, said:

Bourke uses 2♠ :

After
1♦ -1♥
2♦ - ??
Opener will not hold 4 spades, so Responder's relay is 2♠.

http://www.freewebs....BourkeRelay.htm

So opener has to rebid 1♠ with 4-7 ? IMO this is bad.

To clarify, we borrowed the general idea from Bourke, but then worked out our own rules and rebids.

[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-December-21, 11:16, said:

So opener has to rebid 1♠ with 4-7 ? IMO this is bad.

It is bad if partner will be passing 1♠; but even if he is one of the players on that side of the debate on the forcing nature of 1/1/1, someone will rescue the auction if you are 4-7 in the blacks.

[jukmoi]

3NT seems pretty obvious (assuming standard bidding).

[Antrax]

How do we know they won't cash five diamond tricks or knock out my spade stopper and then cash spades when they get in? I'm not very good with visualizing hands, but can't partner have something like ♠Qx ♥xx ♦KQx ♣KQJxxx?

[MrAce]

aguahombre, on 2011-December-21, 11:20, said:

It is bad if partner will be passing 1♠; but even if he is one of the players on that side of the debate on the forcing nature of 1/1/1, someone will rescue the auction if you are 4-7 in the blacks.

Nothing can be as bad as bidding 2♦ over 1♥ when has a side 4 card ♠ in any system or style imo.

[MrAce]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-December-21, 11:16, said:

So opener has to rebid 1♠ with 4-7 ? IMO this is bad.

So can we take this as in the zone that you play bridge it is standart to bid 2♦ over 1♥ with 7♦+4♠ ? Since you seem to be pretty surprised when asking your question.



My personal opinion is, nothing can be as awful as bidding 2♦ with side 4 card ♠. I mean u can override an xxxx and AKQxxxx suits and treat as if u have 3 card ♠, which i dont mind but, keeping 4 card ♠ still in the picture after 2♦ systematically is one of the worst suggestions i have read in the forums.