[frank0]

If you use some 3 level response to 1NT(15-17) to show 5-5 major invitation and 5-5 major game forcing, then what is the meaning of the following sequence?

1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠

1NT-2♥-2♠-3♥

[guido]

frank0, on 2011-October-21, 15:25, said:

If you use some 3 level response to 1NT(15-17) to show 5-5 major invitation and 5-5 major game forcing, then what is the meaning of the following sequence?

1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠

1NT-2♥-2♠-3♥

It means what your partnership decides it means. With that very helpful advice <grin>, you might consider that there is no obvious way to signal slam aspirations in a single suited hand after the transfer. You can define the cheapest bid in the other major (i.e., the sequences you show) as a slam try in the shown major.

[rbforster]

One treatment for the 2♠ rebid is an artificial minor suit slam try (these are hard to show unless you play 4 suit transfers, which I don't). Opener bids 2NT and then 3m is that suit with 1/3 honors, 3M is the corresponding minor but with 2/3 top, and 3N is either minor solid. You do have to remember that bidding 2♠ cancels the meaning of the heart transfer.

[the hog]

Why not 5-4 shapes?

[MrAce]

rbforster, on 2011-October-22, 00:16, said:

One treatment for the 2♠ rebid is an artificial minor suit slam try (these are hard to show unless you play 4 suit transfers, which I don't). Opener bids 2NT and then 3m is that suit with 1/3 honors, 3M is the corresponding minor but with 2/3 top, and 3N is either minor solid. You do have to remember that bidding 2♠ cancels the meaning of the heart transfer.

Of course this also disables you from making any superaccept bid.

[Free]

Obviously this depends on the rest of your NT system, it's hard to say what you have and what you don't have. For example, do you have a way to show an invitational hand with 5♥-4♠? You could use 1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠ for that.

Personally I have several ways to play 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♥:
- INV with 5-5M
- retranser, either INV 6♠ or slam going (part of a complete system of transfer extensions)
- slam going setting ♠
I've also seen people play this as GF 5-5M.

[rbforster]

MrAce, on 2011-October-22, 18:14, said:

Of course this also disables you from making any superaccept bid.

No, you just have to bid 2♠ for any super accept and responder will bid 2NT with real hearts (allowing opener to describe his super accept), or else responder bids 3m+ as before.

[aguahombre]

rbforster, on 2011-October-23, 05:30, said:

No, you just have to bid 2♠ for any super accept and responder will bid 2NT with real hearts (allowing opener to describe his super accept), or else responder bids 3m+ as before.

Yes, that is the Walsh Relay agreement. The people who use 2D-2H-2S differently have 4-suit xfers available, just use stayman first for the minor suit slammish hands, or have other toys.

This is not really a debatable thing. Totally dependent upon what everything else means, and everything is workable if thoroughly hashed out.

[barmar]

the hog, on 2011-October-22, 00:56, said:

Why not 5-4 shapes?

Because Smolen is available for that.

[Free]

barmar, on 2011-October-23, 11:37, said:

Because Smolen is available for that.

I think Hog was a bit lazy and meant "invitational 5-4 shapes"

[barmar]

Free, on 2011-October-24, 02:23, said:

I think Hog was a bit lazy and meant "invitational 5-4 shapes"

I use Smolen for that, too. 1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥/♠ is invitational with Smolen shape. I give up creeping Stayman, but I don't consider it much of a loss.

[Zelandakh]

If the alternative hands discussed are already covered by system then we might conclude that the basic premise of the OP is wrong. Perhaps it should be re-stated as "since all major suit hands are already covered what is the best use of the (some) 3 level response?"

[FrancesHinden]

As everyone else has said, it depends on the rest of your system. What hand types are already covered, and which aren't? I play the first sequences as a 4-5 game force, and the second as a slam try in spades, but you wouldn't want to copy that unless you also took over the rest of our system (which I'm fairly certain you wouldn't want to do!)

[kenrexford]

FWIW, I like:

Creeping/garbage Stayman if 2♥ rebid

Stayman...2♠ = 5 spades, unbalanced invite (might have four hearts if Opener bid 2♦)

Transfer...2♠ is 5♥/4♠ invite

But, I also am thinking of...

Transfer...2♠ = Canape invite (longer spades than hearts)

Transfer...3♥ = Canape invite (longer hearts than spades)

[Cyberyeti]

frank0, on 2011-October-21, 15:25, said:

If you use some 3 level response to 1NT(15-17) to show 5-5 major invitation and 5-5 major game forcing, then what is the meaning of the following sequence?

1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠

1NT-2♥-2♠-3♥

Also depends what you play 1N-4any as, we play 1N-4♦ as 5-5 M to play or definite slam interest, with 1N-2♥-2♠-3♥-3N-4non♠ as the milder slam invite.

[rbforster]

kenrexford, on 2011-October-29, 08:18, said:

I also am thinking of...

Transfer...2♠ = Canape invite (longer spades than hearts)

Transfer...3♥ = Canape invite (longer hearts than spades)

Sounds perfect for those situations where NT opener is a worse declarer than responder

[rbforster]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-October-30, 06:09, said:

Also depends what you play 1N-4any as, we play 1N-4♦ as 5-5 M to play or definite slam interest

in my years of playing 1NT-3♠ as 5/5 majors GF, this comes up quite rarely. However, something like half the time it has come up, partner has opened a 22(54) shape 1NT and bids 3NT instead of 4M. I wouldn't want to force past 3N unless your partner is more disciplined than mine ( and we certainly don't open most 22(54)s 1NT either).