[Xiaolongnu]

I post this question to directors of the world. Law 76B5 states that "A spectator at the table shall not draw attention to any aspect of the game." But what happens when a kibitzer sees an injustice so grave that he must by ethics do something about it? I have received word of a case where a player bullies another player on the table. The offender was a guy and his opponent was declarer and she was a girl. When she dropped a card on the table by accident, he told her that "this is a penalty card, leave it on the table", which is clearly nonsense. A kibitzer witnessed this. The director is not nearby. What should the kibitzer do? From the kibitzer's judgment, he has good reason to believe that besides the infraction of not calling the director, the offender could have been intentionally bullying the opponent.

Common sense seems to tell us that in this type of situation, he should go and tell the director about it. Is he allowed to? I think so. The justification is that by doing so (telling the director discreetly), the kibitzer is not "drawing attention" to anything at the table. Then, when the director comes and instructs the kibitzer to explain what happened, the kibitzer may then "speak as to fact or law" safely, as he is, now, "requested to do so by the director".

I justify this by believing that the spirit of the law behind 76B5 is that a kibitzer is not allowed to disturb a player or give UI to him. Giving information to the director (and righting an injustice) is not considered doing anything "unfair" to the progress of the game.

[ggwhiz]

Xiaolongnu, on 2011-October-14, 14:05, said:

I post this question to directors of the world. Law 76B5 states that "A spectator at the table shall not draw attention to any aspect of the game."

Nothing stops the spectator from excusing himself and informing a Director AWAY from the table.

I would do so at the speed of light and agree with you that any follow up as handled by the Director should take the spectator completely off the hook.

[aguahombre]

Kibs have been placed by authorities to monitor for irregularities from time to time. What should not happen, IMO is to involve the kibitzer back at the table. Nothing good can come of that.

[blackshoe]

One might suggest that the fact declarer is "a girl" is irrelevant. Other than that I agree with the other responses so far.

[axman]

Xiaolongnu, on 2011-October-14, 14:05, said:

I post this question to directors of the world. Law 76B5 states that "A spectator at the table shall not draw attention to any aspect of the game." But what happens when a kibitzer sees an injustice so grave that he must by ethics do something about it? I have received word of a case where a player bullies another player on the table. The offender was a guy and his opponent was declarer and she was a girl. When she dropped a card on the table by accident, he told her that "this is a penalty card, leave it on the table", which is clearly nonsense. A kibitzer witnessed this. The director is not nearby. What should the kibitzer do? From the kibitzer's judgment, he has good reason to believe that besides the infraction of not calling the director, the offender could have been intentionally bullying the opponent.

Common sense seems to tell us that in this type of situation, he should go and tell the director about it. Is he allowed to? I think so. The justification is that by doing so (telling the director discreetly), the kibitzer is not "drawing attention" to anything at the table. Then, when the director comes and instructs the kibitzer to explain what happened, the kibitzer may then "speak as to fact or law" safely, as he is, now, "requested to do so by the director".

I justify this by believing that the spirit of the law behind 76B5 is that a kibitzer is not allowed to disturb a player or give UI to him. Giving information to the director (and righting an injustice) is not considered doing anything "unfair" to the progress of the game.

In Gatlinburg the typical noise level would be considered a roar. Under those circumstances I was watching a KO match where three tables away there was a tirade of abuse shaking me in my chair [even with the background noise going on]. After twenty minutes of putting up with it I notified the TD of the problem. He advised me he would do nothing about it as I wasn’t a player at that table.

While I can see the point that if the players are well aware of that kind of irregularity anyone of them could and ought to speak out, and to not do so they deserve what they get.

I wish to point out that it is extremely important for third parties to be careful to not introduce in any way their own anomalies into a hand in play. So, with that in mind, after consideration it occurred to me there is sufficient leeway for a kibitzer at some other table to draw attention to such a public nuisance so that a TD might take action; and in every event it occurred to me that the TD has a duty to address all irregularities brought to his attention by what whatever means he comes to know about them.

[1eyedjack]

axman, on 2011-October-14, 21:07, said:

In Gatlinburg the typical noise level would be considered a roar. Under those circumstances I was watching a KO match where three tables away there was a tirade of abuse shaking me in my chair [even with the background noise going on]. After twenty minutes of putting up with it I notified the TD of the problem. He advised me he would do nothing about it as I wasn't a player at that table.

I should have thought that the TD would have been within his rights to observe the "offending" table from that point on, should he be minded do so for reasons of his own, and then act on evidence directly obtained from that observation.

[blackshoe]

There is a tendency, it seems, for some TDs to avoid doing their job in cases where they are likely to have problems with the players involved.

[JLOGIC]

Tell the guy he's wrong and that is not the rule, and tell the inexperienced player to call the director, and since you're gonna get barred from kibbing by the player/director might as well tell the guy he's a jackass.

#notadirector

[BunnyGo]

JLOGIC, on 2011-October-15, 05:28, said:

Tell the guy he's wrong and that is not the rule, and tell the inexperienced player to call the director, and since you're gonna get barred from kibbing by the player/director might as well tell the guy he's a jackass.

#notadirector

I think #notadirector, #notagoodplayer, and #notaniceperson should definitely get used more.

[bluejak]

Whether I am a good player or a nice person is for others to judge, not me. However, I am a Director.

The ACBL [well someone, anyway, I think it is the ACBL] have said that the rule about dummy not calling a TD on his own initiative should be ignored if the problem is Disciplinary, ie if an opponent calls declarer a ***** - or if partner calls an opponent a ***** - dummy should call the Director anyway. I think this is reasonable.

In the same way, kibitzers should do nothing whatever if a player bids because of a hesitation leads out of turn, revokes, makes an insufficient bid and so on. But I think a kibitzer should tell a TD if there is a Disciplinary problem.

In the Gatlinburg case, whether you have a right to tell the TD or not, now he knows about it Law 81C6 [number quoted from memory, may be wrong, how about 81C3?] means he is required to deal with it.

In the case in the OP if you really believe declarer is being bullied you tell the TD. But just giving rulings at the table [right or wrong] is not a Disciplinary matter so you keep quiet. It is a fine matter of judgement.

[ggwhiz]

JLOGIC, on 2011-October-15, 05:28, said:

Tell the guy he's wrong and that is not the rule, and tell the inexperienced player to call the director, and since you're gonna get barred from kibbing by the player/director might as well tell the guy he's a jackass.

#notadirector

Good point. Any player can bar 1 kibitzer without cause (in ACBL land anyway) and it's about to be you. Might as well go out smokin.

[blackshoe]

bluejak, on 2011-October-15, 08:38, said:

Whether I am a good player or a nice person is for others to judge, not me. However, I am a Director.

The ACBL [well someone, anyway, I think it is the ACBL] have said that the rule about dummy not calling a TD on his own initiative should be ignored if the problem is Disciplinary, ie if an opponent calls declarer a ***** - or if partner calls an opponent a ***** - dummy should call the Director anyway. I think this is reasonable.

In the same way, kibitzers should do nothing whatever if a player bids because of a hesitation leads out of turn, revokes, makes an insufficient bid and so on. But I think a kibitzer should tell a TD if there is a Disciplinary problem.

In the Gatlinburg case, whether you have a right to tell the TD or not, now he knows about it Law 81C6 [number quoted from memory, may be wrong, how about 81C3?] means he is required to deal with it.

In the case in the OP if you really believe declarer is being bullied you tell the TD. But just giving rulings at the table [right or wrong] is not a Disciplinary matter so you keep quiet. It is a fine matter of judgement.

It was someone, I don't remember who, at ACBL HQ. It's Law 81C3 that tells the TD he has to deal with it. I note that Law 76B tells kibs to keep their mouths shut when at the table. Law 76C says "A spectator may speak as to fact or law within the playing area only when requested to do so by the director." So it would seem that following the law literally here would preclude a kibitzer leaving the table and telling the TD of a disciplinary problem. In spite of that, I agree with David and ACBL HQ that he should do it, and the TD should thank him and deal with the problem.

A while back, as a kibitzer, a problem arose at the table. One of the players said "Ed, you're a director, what's the ruling?" I replied "Law 9 says you should call the Director".

[Xiaolongnu]

Wow...I am honoured! I didn't know what to do so I called this panel of online directors to tell this story about 24 hours ago. I did not expect such a huge panel of directors to have responded. Thank you all of you very much for your ideas. I have questions.

I am Kane from Singapore. I am a director. I am very junior into directing, but I have pride and take great pride in my directing.

To ggwhiz: That is what I thought. Thank you.

To aguahombre: I think then those are not exactly kibitzers but more of para-officials (for lack of a better word). I am referring to random kibitzers on their own initiative and have no written authority to do any of these.

To blackshoe: Yes, of course in the context of ruling, guy and girl does not make a difference. But here I am appalled and especially disturbed by the observation that here an old man is bullying a young girl. She is only a high school student! He ought to be if anything more lenient and not too strict about rules on a new player! Instead he tries to "pull rank", makes use of the Asian society's unwritten rules that the young must give way and obey the old, to his own advantage. This is the breaking straw that made me consider the offence so grave that it warrants discussing it at a cross country level. And yes, I totally agree about directors who want an easy life, having worked with such prideless directors before.

To bluejak: I don't mean bullying as in physical or verbal abuse. I meant bullying as in trying to self rule, which means that from my judgment it is a case of he knows a little bit about the rules, then, as an older player, tries to "lord over" the younger player. Would you consider this a disciplinary offence? As I mentioned I am particularly inclined to categorize this as bullying as like I said, the victim is a young girl while the offender is an old man. PS: Side issue, I like cats too, how could I list it as one of my interests? (:

One final thing, the conclusion. So this means the correct righteous action is to inform the director away from the table?

Thank you everyone (:

[ggwhiz]

Xiaolongnu, on 2011-October-16, 10:47, said:

One final thing, the conclusion. So this means the correct righteous action is to inform the director away from the table?

That's my opinion.

For the record, I am a very junior Director but am the designated Bridge Lawyer on my Swiss teams and value these Laws forums as extremely educational. Becoming a regular here is a big win for me.

[blackshoe]

As a spectator, inform the director away from the table. Don't say anything at the table. As a director, have a talk with the guy and explain to him that making his own rulings at the table is verboten (read him Law 10A if necessary) and that if he continues to do it, he will receive a disciplinary penalty (DP). Explain to him that making his own rulings when his opponent is particularly young or inexperienced is particularly bad. Then, next time he does it, make sure he gets that DP.

Note: The ACBL has a "Zero Tolerance" policy which, where it is in effect, requires the TD to issue a penalty (25% of a top is standard in the ACBL) for a first offense. In theory anyway (I haven't seen it happen, particularly at clubs). I don't know if Singapore has a similar policy, but if it does, then replace the warning for a first offense with a penalty.