[Free]

 Cyberyeti, on 2011-September-08, 06:23, said:

We transfer and any minimum bid now is not GF, we can play in 3♠, so an invitational 5♠/4 or 5♣ can transfer and bid clubs.

Is that standard? If I were to sit at a table, I'd expect transfer followed by 3♣ to be GF with 5+♠ and 4+♣. How do you show GF hands with a side minor?

 Cyberyeti, on 2011-September-08, 06:23, said:

It seems that all you lose by playing this as garbage stayman is playing in 2♠ rather than 3 with a 5-3 or good 5-2 fit when opener is minimum and has no heart fit.

Still not looking at the complete picture. With this method, I'm much better placed when responder has a strong hand.
1NT-2♥-2♠-?
2NT/3♣/3♦ = GF transfer
3♥ = INV/SI with 6+♠
3♠ = bid 4♠ with fit, 3NT otherwise
3NT = suggestion to play, even with ♠ fit, do something smart

After each of these transfers, you gain an extra step below 3NT to describe shortness and you rightside some contracts. Great tool for slam bidding if you ask me.
Also it's possible to stay out of poor 4M contracts when you have fit. And you're better placed when responder has a SI with 6+♠.

 Cyberyeti, on 2011-September-08, 06:23, said:

Playing a weak no trump myself, I find the garbage stayman more useful.

Well ok, with weak NT slam bidding isn't as important as part score bidding, so your approach may have more merrit when playing a weak NT than when playing a strong NT. Nevertheless, sacrificing 1 garbage hand (which requires opener to have a certain hand type before you win) for several constructive options is worth it imo. And if you play a 4-point NT range, it might be very useful to be able to play 2♠ instead of 3♠ when you have a minimum opener opposite an invite.

(also note that my approach allows me to invite a little lighter as well)

[the_dude]

 JLOGIC, on 2011-September-07, 13:53, said:

You could make a case for correcting 2D to 2H if your majors were extremely strong and you had exactly 7, something like QJT9 KJT9 xxxx x I would bid 2H because I would expect playing a 4-3 major fit to be quite good given the solidity of those suits, but thats a pretty contrived example and in real life I have never done this.

Out of curiosity .. has invitational Smolen at the 2 level fallen out of fashion? (or perhaps it was never in fashion...)

[Cyberyeti]

 Free, on 2011-September-08, 06:57, said:

Is that standard? If I were to sit at a table, I'd expect transfer followed by 3♣ to be GF with 5+♠ and 4+♣. How do you show GF hands with a side minor?

No it's not standard, you show them the same way but bid on.

Quote

Still not looking at the complete picture. With this method, I'm much better placed when responder has a strong hand.
1NT-2♥-2♠-?
2NT/3♣/3♦ = GF transfer
3♥ = INV/SI with 6+♠
3♠ = bid 4♠ with fit, 3NT otherwise
3NT = suggestion to play, even with ♠ fit, do something smart

After each of these transfers, you gain an extra step below 3NT to describe shortness and you rightside some contracts. Great tool for slam bidding if you ask me.
Also it's possible to stay out of poor 4M contracts when you have fit. And you're better placed when responder has a SI with 6+♠.

We just bid the slammy one 1N-3♠

Quote

Well ok, with weak NT slam bidding isn't as important as part score bidding, so your approach may have more merrit when playing a weak NT than when playing a strong NT. Nevertheless, sacrificing 1 garbage hand (which requires opener to have a certain hand type before you win) for several constructive options is worth it imo. And if you play a 4-point NT range, it might be very useful to be able to play 2♠ instead of 3♠ when you have a minimum opener opposite an invite.

(also note that my approach allows me to invite a little lighter as well)

Yeah, with a strong no trump, you have say 16, everybody else has 8 on average, your game invites are key.

With a weak no trump, you have 13, everybody else has 9, part scores become much more important, and slams less likely.

If I played a 4 point no trump range in a serious partnership (I used to play a 6 point range) I wouldn't use anything resembling this anyway.

[kgr]

Thanks all for the answers.
Assuming the following analysis is correct:

 semeai, on 2011-September-07, 20:23, said:

This is probably better suited to a simulation, but I tried it analytically but ignoring the confounding factor of hcp.
If you open any balanced hand including 5M332 and neither 5m422 nor 6m322, I get 56.9%.
If you open with any balanced hand including 5M332 plus any 5m422 and any 6m322, I get 53.2%
If you open any balanced hand except never 5M-332 (and also neither 5m422 nor 6m322), I get 51.3%.
If you open any balanced hand except never 5M-332 but do open all 5m422 and all 6m322, I get 48.4%
(Before posting, I double checked and found I'd left off 3-3-4-3. I think I've used every distribution now, though.)

We Open 1NT with some 5M332 and some 5m422. I would guess that I get then around 52% for a 4cM.
Note that with my regular partner we don't play Stayman and therefor would not be able to end in 2D.
We play some kind of Heeman:
With 4=4-x-x we have to transfer to H first and if partner does not bid 2H (no 4cH) then we can bid 2S.
That shows then 4+cS & 4+cH and Invite+
This is forcing and partner will bid 2NT with a minimal hand and no fit; and bids 3C with a maximal hand and no fit.
=>
- Playing weak Stayman it is percentage to stayman and pass 2D.
- Playing the system described above you end in 2NT/3NT without fit OR in 3M/4M with a fit. => Maybe it is better to pass 1NT then?

[semeai]

 kgr, on 2011-September-08, 09:12, said:

We Open 1NT with some 5M332 and some 5m422. I would guess that I get then around 52% for a 4cM.

If you open with all balanced hands with no 5M, half of 5M332's, half of 5m422's, and no 6m322's, I get 54.8%.

As Free points out it's really the 6m322's that hurt the percentage, so you're just getting some sort of average of the first two in my list based on opening 5M332's half the time, say.

In terms of ending up in bad diamond fits with Stayman, using the above model for a 1NT opener (all balanced with no 5M, half of 5M332's, half of 5m422's, and no 6m322's) I get you ending in a 4-2 diamond fit 5.1% of the time, a 4-3 diamond fit 17.5% of the time, a 4-4 diamond fit 16.0% of the time, and a 4-5 diamond fit 6.7% of the time. (Of course these add up, other than an error of 0.1 due to rounding, to 100-54.8.)

So in terms of what to do over 1N-2C;2D, if you pass you'll have the above percentages. If you bid 2H, you'll get to a 4-2 fit the 2.6% of the time that partner had 2-2-5-4 or 2-2-4-5, and the remaining 42.6% of the time you'll get to a 4-3 fit.

[JLOGIC]

 the_dude, on 2011-September-08, 07:39, said:

Out of curiosity .. has invitational Smolen at the 2 level fallen out of fashion? (or perhaps it was never in fashion...)

Dunno, garbage stayman has been standard in America for as long as I have played, but maybe before I played inv smolen was common, no idea.

[MrAce]

 JLOGIC, on 2011-September-08, 18:05, said:

Dunno, garbage stayman has been standard in America for as long as I have played, but maybe before I played inv smolen was common, no idea.

It depends on what he meant by smolen. Smolen to me means responder bids his 4 card major when hold 4-5 in order to make NT opener declarer if there is a 5-3 fit. And used for gf hands.

That was never std or on fashion when it comes to invitation bids at 2 level for obvious reasons.