[Hanoi5]

Both red, teams:

♠76
♥JT6
♦KQJT5
♣T32

1♣(16+ ANY hand)-(1♠)-???

2♦ would be natural and GF (8+), X would show 5-7.

Can partner stop short of game if you give a positive with this hand?

[Foxx]

Good question. This hand looks right on the line. When I put it into K&R, it measured at 7.75, which IMO is not enough to give a positive response. Therefore, we have to X.

I've just started learning Precision very recently, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but a positive, 8+ showing response to a 1♣ opening is game forcing. The only way we can stop below game is by playing in 4♣ or 4♦ after learning we don't have a spade stop.

[cloa513]

Foxx, on 2011-June-28, 18:17, said:

Good question. This hand looks right on the line. When I put it into K&R, it measured at 7.75, which IMO is not enough to give a positive response. Therefore, we have to X.

I've just started learning Precision very recently, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but a positive, 8+ showing response to a 1♣ opening is game forcing. The only way we can stop below game is by playing in 4♣ or 4♦ after learning we don't have a spade stop.

If playing extremely basic precision- 1NT then 2NT by opener can be passed but every other sequence is forcing to 3NT or the four level. Lots of options for precision like any other system.

[mgoetze]

Looks like a 5-7 hand to me.

[dake50]

1S was a natural/normal overcall?
Or, as I experience, a changed system verses 1C forcing.
That's a violation of ACBL: opponents must have a CC
noting their defense bids are different against 1C.
They may not deviate by opposing pairs system.
If it was a normal overcall (9-15), what game is on
with a minimum bal 1C opener?
If a private agreement 1S (0-6), now we must show
5xD one loser suit.
Against the agree-to-psych 1S, positive must show GF later.

[the hog]

mgoetze, on 2011-July-03, 15:48, said:

Looks like a 5-7 hand to me.

Looks like a 5-7 hand to me as well.
Not that this is part of your question, but don't you feel it would be better to show these 6-7 hands naturally rather than by doubling. It seems to me you can easily get too high if you have to double on this sort of hand.

[JLOGIC]

Double shows 5-7, and I have 7. Tough one.

[aguahombre]

As much as you like to upgrade, it is tough

[Free]

No need for an upgrade just yet, seems like an easy Dbl.

[helene_t]

the hog, on 2011-July-03, 21:43, said:

Looks like a 5-7 hand to me as well.
Not that this is part of your question, but don't you feel it would be better to show these 6-7 hands naturally rather than by doubling. It seems to me you can easily get too high if you have to double on this sort of hand.

True, the nebulous negative double is a weak spot in Classical Precision (or maybe it should be called neo-classical precision, since the original Wei book had a semipositive 2♦ and an artificial GF 1NT).

It does make life easier, though, if you can establish a gf, then you don't have to ask yourself which follow-ups are forcing.

[Hilver]

Well, accordig to your agreements You have 7 HCP. So don't overbid and double.

Jan

[mycroft]

My answers to the OP:

1) X. It sometimes gives difficult auctions, but less often than not making the systemic bid with your hand. Partner is almost always Captain after 1C, try not to lie to him. Edit: you have a minor, as well; if 3NT is right, you'll get to bid it. If the suit was hearts, I might think about it.

2) You can define it that way, but most Precision pairs' experience is that you shouldn't - the things you have to do to avoid partner passing outweigh the odd no-hope game you are forced into by the system.

Having said that, I play in this auction that X is 5-8, and bids are 9+ and definitely GF. It leads to a lot of doubling, and a lot of good guessing later, but it also allows a minimum balanced opener to pass raises and responder to take a piece out of the partscore knowing +200 is enough.

People have inverted the responses in competition so that double is "any gameforce" and bids are the 5-8; that puts you ahead there, at the cost of 1C-(1S)-X-(3S) or (4S) and neither of you have shown a suit. People have gone so far as to invert responses out of competition, so that the "semi-positives" get all the bids, and the dead minimums and game forces get one bid each. There are advantages to that (and disadvantages), but it's a *lot* more work.

[nige1]

Hanoi5, on 2011-June-28, 16:46, said:

Both red, teams: ♠ 76 ♥ JT6 ♦ KQJT5 ♣ T32
1♣(16+ ANY hand)-(1♠)-???
2♦ would be natural and GF (8+), X would show 5-7.
Can partner stop short of game if you give a positive with this hand?

IMO 2♦ = 10, Double = 9. You have three tens. If opponents compete, it may help partner to know your suit. The downside is that you commit to game.

Rosemary Cadell said:

I shall never be slave to a knave

[PrecisionL]

nige1, on 2011-July-05, 19:21, said:

IMO 2♦ = 10, Double = 9. You have three tens. If opponents compete, it may help partner to know your suit. The downside is that you commit to game.

A better approach (perhaps?): X = 6+ hcp, no long suit, cue = 6+ hcp and 4441♠ and transfers starting at 1NT, therefore on this hand transfer to diamonds (2♣) and invite game by raising partner's rebid.

[mike777]

given op x

]]but prefer x to be 6+hcp and less than 3 controls.

[klozetia]

what you bid without overcall ops 1!S ?
1c-ops pass (elese 1s) - i think all bid 1d 0-7 so why with overcall 1s we must bid anything ? i bid PASS for now and watching
is nice agree after 1c and overcall on level one " never finish auction before 1nt" with dbl as awaken to keep auction and ready for trap
what you do with 6 spades and 0-2(3) pts ? dbl ??? 1nt ??