bidding opposite a passed hand
#1
Posted 2011-April-26, 20:45
I've always thought that if partner has passed, that I need a smidge (like a point or two) more to compete. For example,
P 1S dbl ought to show more than...
1S dbl
I'd also think that
P 1S 1N ought to show more than
1S 1N
I'm thinking of...
1) safety
2) supporting partner's ability to compete to higher levels
3) not giving away information when we have less chance for the bid
An opposing viewpoint might cite
1) It's safer to bid earlier than try to balance because partner could be very weak
2) partner won't and shouldn't bid too much because he's a passed hand
Interested if there is a consensus here on this. Also, are there references that discuss it? I know Lawrence has a book on passed hand bidding, but I don't have a copy.
#2
Posted 2011-April-26, 21:55
Some of us believe that ---because we might open crap elevens in first seat ---our 3rd-seat openings should be better if in a major; we take liberties with weak-2's to compensate. Our overcalls are what they are.
This affects whether we even need Drury at all, for instance ---and whether a passed hand NT in response to a major is still a 1-round force; and whether a 2/1 response by a passed hand can still be a force for one round; etc, etc, etc.
We admit to being old fashioned in our agreements about 3rd-seat openings and the responses. On the other hand, we listen to the post mortems of our opponents with satisfaction when they start with "But, you (or I) were a passed hand".
Also related are the times when a passed hand responds 1/1 and gets dropped there...losing the race to 1NT or missing a good game; or allowing us to compete easily for a part score in suit.
This ramble might seem to border on hijack, but it does bear on your contention.
#3
Posted 2011-April-26, 22:22
I would definitely pass or double some hands that I would overcall 1N with opp an UPH though if partner was a PH. 1N overcalls are dangerous and the payoff is generally getting in in order to bid game/not get shut out.
#4
Posted 2011-April-26, 22:47
http://www.bridgewin...ner-overcalling
The writer seemed to affirm that a NT overcall should be more solid opposite a passed hand. I wasn't sure if he meant that other overcalls should also be sound. At the end, someone commented that counter-intutively, borderline actions (doubles?) have more upside opposite passed hands than unpassed hands. I don't think I agree with that, but...
#5
Posted 2011-April-26, 22:47
when partner is a passed hand.
Often 1C knows we seek a partial. Get in there.
Often 1C sees game only if maxpass. Not 1D neg.
Often the 1C question is "have you a trick?"
ie. would not raise but not worthless.
I like semi-force transfer responses instead of GF positives.
Let rebid show. Let jump accept be game invite to 6-ish; GF if 8+.
#6
Posted 2011-April-27, 00:47
dake50, on 2011-April-26, 22:47, said:
when partner is a passed hand.
Often 1C knows we seek a partial. Get in there.
Often 1C sees game only if maxpass. Not 1D neg.
Often the 1C question is "have you a trick?"
ie. would not raise but not worthless.
I like semi-force transfer responses instead of GF positives.
Let rebid show. Let jump accept be game invite to 6-ish; GF if 8+.
We're not talking about strong club auctions. We're talking about doubling or overcalling when partner is a passed hand.
#7
Posted 2011-April-27, 02:15
straube, on 2011-April-26, 20:45, said:
1) It's safer to bid earlier than try to balance because partner could be very weak
2) partner won't and shouldn't bid too much because he's a passed hand
Thats my point of view.
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#8
Posted 2011-April-27, 02:53
- hrothgar
#10
Posted 2011-April-27, 08:35
- hrothgar
#11
Posted 2011-April-27, 09:22
#12
Posted 2011-April-27, 15:51
Opposite a passed hand, you are often competing for a partial or trying to direct a lead or sacrifice. It becomes safer to make marginal overcalls with a very good suit (like a two-level overcall on a "sound weak two") because partner is less likely to push for game and you want the suit lead. It becomes riskier to overcall with fairly flat hands and/or mediocre suits because your chance of being doubled for a number just went up (partner less likely to have a good hand) and your chance of finding a good game that you would miss otherwise just went down (partner less likely to have a good hand).
This applies to doubles somewhat too -- doubling with "perfect shape" but light values may be safer opposite a passed hand, whereas making an off-shape double on a flat hand with mild extras becomes less appealing.
Since notrump overcall hands are (usually) flat by definition, having them be more sound opposite a passed hand is sensible.
You can construct hands where I would pass opposite an UPH and overcall opposite a PH (the ♣AQJxxx and out hand is a good example). You can also construct hands where the opposite is true (perhaps Axx x AQxx KJ9xx).
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#13
Posted 2011-April-27, 15:57
JLOGIC, on 2011-April-26, 22:22, said:
How about off-shape doubles (or slightly off-shape, say a stopperless 3334 over 1♠) where the main concern is gettting stolen if you pass?
#14
Posted 2011-April-28, 01:52
Cherdano, I guess I would pass some of those, but if I had 13 or whatever I'd still double, there is value in getting in when it might be your hand for a partial and I hate trying to guess later whether to bid or not. I don't really view a takeout double as a risky proposition, if we have any fit we are unlikely to get doubled and go for a number.