[straube]

Our 1S response to our strong club shows 0-2 queen points (usually 0-4 hcps but not uncommon to have 5 or 6). Our continuations are...

1N-17-20
2C-almost GF
......2D-really bad
..........2M-nf
......other-GF various
2D-natural
2H-natural
2S-natural but stronger than passing 1S
2N-21-22
3m-to play

We have obvious problems with the 2-suiters. I'm thinking

2D-hearts
2H-spades
2S-clubs
.....2N-a little life
2N-21-22
3C-minors
3D-diamonds

Suggestions?

[straube]

Having a surprising amount of luck passing 1S with a balanced NT. Has anyone tried this? That leaves 1N available as an asking bid. That could leave 2C etc as natural nf or perhaps transfers, etc.

[straube]

deleted

1N as big is too rare a hand type. it needs to be nf

still looking for solutions

[straube]

1C-1S

1N-17-19
2C-20-22 balanced or 4441 or 5m431
.....P-5 clubs
.....2D-stayman
.....2H-to play
.....2S-to play
2D-hearts
2H-spades
2S-clubs
2N-23+ balanced or 5m431
3C-diamonds
other-4441s?

[Free]

I like the following structure after 1♣-1♠ double negative:
1NT = natural, up to 20HCP or so
2♣ = at least 5-4 Majors
...2♦ = no preference
...2M = signoff
...3M = INV
2♦ = 6+M / 4M 5+m
...2M = P/C
......(2♠ = 6+♠)
......2NT = 4♠ 5+m
.........3♣ = P/C
......3m = 4♥ 5+m
......(3♥ = 6+♥)
2M = 5M 4+m
2NT = 21-23HCP, balanced
3m = natural, NF
3M = natural, INV

It's not perfect for GF hands, but most of the time you can solve it by being creative (for example you can use 2♣ for something else, or you can jump after bidding 2♦ first). However you can get to decent part scores more often imo, which is much more common.

Another alternative I used to play was canapé transfers. You use 2♣ as a forcing call, and the rest is a transfer. You'll either signoff there, or bid a longer suit. For example, with 5♠-4♥ you can bid 1♣-1♠-2♦!-2♥!-2♠! (2♦ trf ♥ ; 2♠ shows longer ♠).

[dake50]

Immediate 1S as double negative: 'neg2' instead of
1C(F1) - 1D(neg1) - 1H(F1) - 1S(neg2)
seems to choose a bid for a rare 3% case that can be handled okay.

[hrothgar]

dake50, on 2011-April-11, 05:40, said:

Immediate 1S as double negative: 'neg2' instead of
1C(F1) - 1D(neg1) - 1H(F1) - 1S(neg2)
seems to choose a bid for a rare 3% case that can be handled okay.

On the MOSCITO front, this design decision was motivated by:

1. MOSCITO uses a relatively weak strong club opening. As a result, the 1♦ response was severely overloaded
2. The auction 1♣ - (P) - 1♦ was very vulnerable to preemption

Showing shape immediately with semi-positive hands positioned us much better after a strong club opening.
Using 1♣ - (P) - 1♦ to show a game force establishes a forcing pass, making it much easier to handle preemption

Using 1♣- (P) - 1♠ as an immediate double negative was an outgrowth of other design decisions.
It wasn't necessarily a design goal in and of itself.

[straube]

Free, on 2011-April-11, 03:43, said:

I like the following structure after 1♣-1♠ double negative:
1NT = natural, up to 20HCP or so
2♣ = at least 5-4 Majors
...2♦ = no preference
...2M = signoff
...3M = INV
2♦ = 6+M / 4M 5+m
...2M = P/C
......(2♠ = 6+♠)
......2NT = 4♠ 5+m
.........3♣ = P/C
......3m = 4♥ 5+m
......(3♥ = 6+♥)
2M = 5M 4+m
2NT = 21-23HCP, balanced
3m = natural, NF
3M = natural, INV

It's not perfect for GF hands, but most of the time you can solve it by being creative (for example you can use 2♣ for something else, or you can jump after bidding 2♦ first). However you can get to decent part scores more often imo, which is much more common.

Another alternative I used to play was canapé transfers. You use 2♣ as a forcing call, and the rest is a transfer. You'll either signoff there, or bid a longer suit. For example, with 5♠-4♥ you can bid 1♣-1♠-2♦!-2♥!-2♠! (2♦ trf ♥ ; 2♠ shows longer ♠).

Along those lines, how about...

2C-has a major and another
.....2D-neither or both majors
..........2H-4/5
..........2S-5/4
..........2N-4H/5m
..........3C-4S/5C
..........3D-4S/5D
.....2H-has only hearts
.....2S-has only spades
2D-6c major or 22-23
.....2H-doesn't like hearts
.....2S-likes hearts, doesn't like spades
.....2N-likes hearts and spades, wouldn't raise NT
.....etc
2M-5M/4m
2N-20-21
3C-minors
3D-majors
3M-highly invitational

[straube]

dake50, on 2011-April-11, 05:40, said:

Immediate 1S as double negative: 'neg2' instead of
1C(F1) - 1D(neg1) - 1H(F1) - 1S(neg2)
seems to choose a bid for a rare 3% case that can be handled okay.

Depending on what exactly 1C and 1S show (in terms of strength) the 1S double negative response is more like 20% of responses. The fact that one hand has 16+ or so means that the likelihood of responder's hand being very weak is a lot higher than average. It's an important sequence.

[straube]

I'm still wondering (on average) what our spade expectancy is after 1C P 1S P. One spade is an attractive overcall to make after a strong club by LHO and I've seen people do that with 4 and even 3 spades. The 1S response does shut out RHO's spade overcall, though rarely they will double to show spades.

I dislike that 1C-1S, 1N shows 16-20. We almost never get a 2C (stayman) continuation (though we get a lot of transfers).

What would happen if we passed 1S on the balanced 16-18 pt hands? Rebid 1N with something like 19-21?

[straube]

Paul Marston is doing something similar to Free

1C: 1S.
. 1N = 15-20. Then 2C= Stay. 2D/H = TFRs, 2S = 5-4 minors(2N asks)
2N=55 ms, 3C/D TP
. 2C=stayman. Then 3 any is GF.
. 2D= one major
. 2H/S = 4(5)M + 5+m
. 2N = 21-23 - then puppet & tfr. 3S = minors.
. 3C/D = to play
. 3H/S = invite. (2C then 3M to force.)

[straube]

2C then 2 any would show a 4cm. So your auction would be 21-23 with 4M.
I see no need to show my 23+, knowing there is 0-4 opposite. I bid 2C then 3
something if I want to hear more.
1C:1S, 2D:2H, 2N... don't know.

-----Original Message-----
From: dastraube@aol.com [mailto:dastraube@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 12 April 2011 4:29 PM
Subject: RE: 1C-1S

Thanks a lot. Does your 2C (by opener) promise a 4-cd major? What would
1C-1S, 2C-2L, 2N show?

I was thinking of using 2D similarly, but also with a strong NT meaning.

1C-1S, 2D-2H, 2N as 23+ or so

Have you used it like that and what would your 1C-1S, 2D-2H, 3m show?

[Free]

please mask the email addresses, I don't think Paul likes to be spammed...

[straube]

Free, on 2011-April-12, 08:08, said:

please mask the email addresses, I don't think Paul likes to be spammed...

Thanks. His email is pretty available, but I deleted it here.

[straube]

1C-1S

1N-16-20
2C-stayman (21-22 bal OR 5/4 majors OR GF hand)
.....2D-weak, no major
..........2H-4S/5H
..........2S-5S/4H
..........2N-21-22
..........3L-natural gf
.....2H-weak, 4+ hearts
..........2S-4 spades, 21-22
..........2N-21-22 balanced
.....2S-weak, 4+ spades
.....3C-4+ stayman
.....3D-inv hearts
.....3H-inv spades
2D-6M or 5M/4m or or 23 bal or 6m
.....2H-wouldn't raise hearts
..........2S-spades
..........2N-23 bal
..........3m-minor
.....2S-would raise hearts, promises 4+
.....2N-would raise hearts or spades, promises 4+ of each
2H-4-5 hearts and 5m
2S-4-5 spades and 5m
2N-minors
3L-invitational

Some things I like about this...starting at 2C with a 21-22 balanced means that we can occasionally stop at 2M in a 4-4 fit. We can also get out in 3m which would be impossible after opening 2N. For instance, 1C-1S, 2C-2H, 2N-3C would show 4H and 5C

The thing I don't like about this is that occasionally opener will have a monster hand (which starts with 2C usually) and responder can get in his way at the 3-level. If opener starts at 2C, his subsequent bids at the 3-level would ordinarily be natural and game forcing.

[Free]

straube, on 2011-April-12, 22:47, said:

1C-1S

1N-16-20
2C-stayman (21-22 bal OR 5/4 majors OR GF hand)
.....2D-weak, no major
..........2H-4S/5H
..........2S-5S/4H
..........2N-21-22
..........3L-natural gf
.....2H-weak, 4+ hearts
..........2S-4 spades, 21-22
..........2N-21-22 balanced
.....2S-weak, 4+ spades
.....3C-4+ stayman
.....3D-inv hearts
.....3H-inv spades
2D-6M or 5M/4m or or 23 bal or 6m
.....2H-wouldn't raise hearts
..........2S-spades
..........2N-23 bal
..........3m-minor
.....2S-would raise hearts, promises 4+
.....2N-would raise hearts or spades, promises 4+ of each
2H-4-5 hearts and 5m
2S-4-5 spades and 5m
2N-minors
3L-invitational

Some things I like about this...starting at 2C with a 21-22 balanced means that we can occasionally stop at 2M in a 4-4 fit. We can also get out in 3m which would be impossible after opening 2N. For instance, 1C-1S, 2C-2H, 2N-3C would show 4H and 5C

The thing I don't like about this is that occasionally opener will have a monster hand (which starts with 2C usually) and responder can get in his way at the 3-level. If opener starts at 2C, his subsequent bids at the 3-level would ordinarily be natural and game forcing.

3 remarks:

1. I don't think you'll ever stop in 2M. Responder can still have 4HCP and you'll miss an easy game. As a matter of fact, I don't like the responses you use after 2♣ (see below).

2. I don't like the 2M calls: if you show 4-5M, then responder can't pass a doubleton. That's why in my structure I use it as exactly 5M (with 4+m), and put the 4M5m hands in 2♦. I guess he only bids 2M with 5 if it's a very poor suit, this may be acceptable.

3. I wouldn't worry too much about responder getting in the way. He must have a maximum double negative (sounds funny) with lots of distribution. But you can also solve this issue by changing your continuations (responder bids like opener has 5-4M):
2♦ = no preference (waiting) or INV
...2♥ = 5♥, 4+♠
......2♠/3♥ = INV
...2♠ = 5♠, 4♥
......3♥/♠ = INV
...2NT = 21-22 bal
...3m = GF m
2M = preference (2 card discrepancy if you prefer 5-2 fits over 4-3)
...2NT = 21-22
...3m = GF m

[Zelandakh]

I have had a think about this. I think by reversing your structure we can have our cake...

1C - 1S
=======
P = weak with some spades
1N = 16-20 (semi-) bal
2C = less than GF (if bal then 21-22), may be passed by Responder with long clubs
...2D = waiting, NF
...others = own suit
2D = choose one from "majors or minors" or "majors or constructive minor"
2M = strong 2, GF except 2M - 2S/2N - 3M
2N = 23-24 (semi-) bal
3m = nat GF
3M = 4M and longer diamonds, GF
3N = 25+ (semi-) bal

The 2D call is kind of just there to fill a niche of whatever hands are the most awkward. Possibly you could get all 3 of these hand types into it but I do not have time to work it out. Equally, more could probably be done with the spade suit since weaker hands can pass, albeit at a cost of memory load if 2H and 2S are different. By reversing 2C and the higher calls you make it possible to stop more often at the 2 level when it is right while allowing the important GF hand type to show itself immediately.

[straube]

I'm basically giving up on trying to establish a GF at a low level. I'm trying to describe opener's 2-suited hands and clarify whether he is minimum or inviting game. To GF, opener will usually be bidding his 2nd suit at the 4-level or his major at the 4-level. I think it's important that 2C promise a major so that subsequent bidding won't be cross-purposed. btw, usually 4M/5m is 4M/6m

2C-has a 4-cd major
…..2D-4H, could have 4S
……….2H-fit
……….2S-4S/5m, minimum
……….2N-21-22 bal with four spades
..........3m-4S/5m invite
…..2H-no major
……….P-4S/5H
……….2S-5S/4H
……….2N-21-22 bal
……….3m-4M/5m
……….3M-6M/4OM, invite
..........4m-4M/5m invite
…..2S-4S, no H, weak
……….P-fit
……….2N-21-22 bal
…..2N-4S, no H, strong

2D-hearts or 21-22 bal no major
…..2H-
……….2S-some 5332 or 54m22 or 54m31, invite
……….2N-21-22 bal no major
……….3m-5/5 invite
……….3H-invite
…..2S-heart raise
2H-spades
…..2S
……….2N-some 5332 or 54m22 or 54m31 invite
……….3m-5/5 invite
……….3H-5H invite
………..3S-invite
2S-minors or just diamonds
…..2N-asks
……….3C-better clubs
……….3D-better diamonds
……….3H-1-3-(54)
……….3S-3-1-(54)
2N-23+ bal or semibalanced, GF
3C-clubs
3D-5-cd stayman with a self-sufficient minor
3M-shortness with a self-sufficient minor

[straube]

Catering to 5H/4S minimum hands really complicates things. Trying to get rid of that...

2C-stayman
…..2D-4+H, could have 4S
……….2H-fit
……….2S-4S, 21-22 bal
……….2N-20-21 no major
..........3m-4S/5m
..........3H-invite
..........3N-4S
…..2H-4+S, could have 4H if longer spades
……….2S-fit
……….2N-21-22 bal
……….3m-4H/5m
..........3S-invite
..........3N-4H
..........4m-4M/5m invite
…..2S-no major
……….P-5S/4H
……….2N-21-22 bal
..........3m-4M/5m
..........3M-6M/4OM, invite


2D-hearts
…..2H-
..........P-could have 4S minimum
……….2S-4S, invite
……….2N-bal or semibal, 21-22 or so
……….3m-5/5 invite
……….3H-invite
…..2S-natural

2H-spades
…..2S
……….2N-bal or semibal, 21-22 or so
……….3m-5/5 invite
……….3H-5H invite
………..3S-invite
2S-minors or just diamonds
…..2N-asks
……….3C-better clubs
……….3D-better diamonds
……….3H-1-3-(54)
……….3S-3-1-(54)
2N-23-24 bal or semibalanced
3C-clubs
3D-5-cd stayman with a self-sufficient minor
.....3M-6M or 5M with some intermediates capable of drawing trump
3M-shortness with a self-sufficient minor
3N-tricks

[Zelandakh]

I really dislike simple transfers from the strong hand here. If going down the transfer route I would much prefer 2-under transfers. Example...

1C - 1S
=======
1N = 16-20 bal
2C = hearts
...2D = waiting
...2H = discouraging for hearts
...2S = own suit
...2N/3C = transfer into own suit
...3D = heart raise
2D = spades
...2H = waiting
...2S = discouraging for spades
...2N/3C/3D = transfer into own suit
...3H = spade raise
2H = clubs or 23+ bal
...2S = waiting
...2N/3C/3D/3H = transfer into own suit
2S = diamonds
2N = 21-22 bal
3any = bundle some awkward hands here