[straube]

I know standard for 1D P 1H P 2H dbl is takeout for 3 suits.

What is 1S P 1N P 2C dbl

1S P 1N P 2D dbl

1S P 1N P 2H dbl

[JLOGIC]

They are all takeout. When the opps have shown a 5 card suit I am not trying to play in that suit.

[straube]

JLOGIC, on 2011-April-02, 19:47, said:

They are all takeout. When the opps have shown a 5 card suit I am not trying to play in that suit.

But are they 3-suited hands with like good values (opening hand+) or 2-suited hands with competitive values?

For instance, would 1S-1N, 2C (dbl) look more like

Axxx KQxx Axxx x or like x KQxxx Kxxxx xx?

It seems, too, like the higher opener's rebid, the more the dbl should resemble the first. For instance, 1S-1N, 2H-dbl isn't likely to be 5/5 (or else 2N immediately), but doubling 1S-1N, 2C seems like it could be 5/4 or 4/5 or a good 4-1-4-4.

[gnasher]

The only thing they promise is the unbid suits and the values to compete. After 1♠-1NT;2♣, I'd double with a 3442 shape. I was going to give an example, but if I had Justin would have told me it was an automatic double of 1♠.

You're right that, as a a general principle, the higher your bid forces the partnership, the more playing strength you should have.

[JLOGIC]

gnasher, on 2011-April-03, 02:17, said:

The only thing they promise is the unbid suits and the values to compete. After 1♠-1NT;2♣, I'd double with a 3442 shape. I was going to give an example, but if I had Justin would have told me it was an automatic double of 1♠.

Haha.

I agree with gnasher, it just promises the unbid suits and the values to compete.

After 1S-1N-2C- it could be

-The 5/5 reds hand too weak to overcall immediately.
-It could have some spade length like 3451 which could be quite a good hand, but could just be an 11 count or w/e.
-It could be 4441, and pretty strong (solid opening bid prob). It could even be:

AKQxx
KJxx
KJx
x

Yes, that covers a wide array of hands. Not to mention 3442 and 2452 hands that some might not make a takeout double with. The point is just to be able to get into the auction when it might be our hand for something. The more red cards we have the less HCP we might have, but our hand types are limited by our initial pass of course. We still need a good hand at least in terms of playing strength to enter this live auction (which is pretty dangerous).

Of course vulnerability and form of scoring matters also. And of course clubs is the one where we could be the weakest.

[peachy]

I would think takeout double of the last bid of their suits, in all cases. There are several reasons why there was no immediate takeout double in the first round of bidding, like imperfect shape and/or too many of opp's first suit.

[straube]

After 1S-1N, 2D I doubled with

AQJxx AQxx x xxx

Maybe too light or too offshape, but opponents had a 10-cd diamond fit and we had a 9-cd heart fit.

I'd like the dbl to show a pretty good hand and something in RHO's suit so that partner can pass on a misfit, but I see how 1S-1N, 2C specifically could be an exception.

[akhare]

JLOGIC, on 2011-April-03, 02:47, said:

Haha.

I agree with gnasher, it just promises the unbid suits and the values to compete.

+1 -- promises the unbid suits and enough values or shape to compete, based on vulnerability. All other implied inferences on the X's hand are conjecture. In some cases, the hand may include length in one of their suits (likely their first suit), but it's speculation at best.

Along similar lines:

(1♣) - (1M) - (2M) - X shows (OM + ♦) and says *nothing* about ♣s. One might make an exception for the case where their 1♣ shows 2+, but IMO, it isn't worth the effort...

[akhare]

straube, on 2011-April-03, 10:28, said:

After 1S-1N, 2D I doubled with

AQJxx AQxx x xxx

Maybe too light or too offshape, but opponents had a 10-cd diamond fit and we had a 9-cd heart fit.

I'd like the dbl to show a pretty good hand and something in RHO's suit so that partner can pass on a misfit, but I see how 1S-1N, 2C specifically could be an exception.

Hmm...what was the auction here?

Was RHO was the dealer and it went(1S) - P (1N) - P - (2♦)? Did you *really* come in with a X over 2♦ on that hand?