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Transfers over 2N rebid

#21 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2013-February-05, 10:38

View Postmikeh, on 2010-November-11, 13:22, said:

1 1
2N 3: optional transfer...responder promises 5+ spades and 4+ hearts (note that if you play meckwell 2 over 1, you have inferences about strength here)

Opener bids 3 with 4 hearts, 3 with 3 spades and fewer than 4 hearts, 3N with 2=3 or 2=2 in the majors.


There is an obvious flaw in this method, namely that responder won't know whether to correct 3NT to 4H with 5-5 in the majors. That's why I prefer to play that opener always bids at the 4-level with 4-card heart support, and bids 3H only with 2-3 in the majors. That way 3NT guarantees 2-2 and responder doesn't have to guess.

Of course an advantage of your method compared to mine is that you find your fit at the 3-level and have more room to investigate slam.

I also think that the Wortel-adjunct I mentioned in this thread in 2011 is an improvement. I don't know why not more people have picked up on it.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#22 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2013-February-05, 11:15

han, don't you transfer to 1M with 4M6D (in which case you'd rather play without Wortel2011)? Well, maybe 5M5D is more likely, so it's OK.
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#23 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2013-February-05, 13:32

I am currently playing some outer space methods including:

3C relay to 3D, either to play 3D/3M, or to make a slam try with the other minor, or for a choice of games with 5332.

3D always a slam try in partners minor

3H checkback, over which 3S always shows 3 hearts regardless of which major partner has shown (lol).

3S 6+ major slam try.

I have no idea why I play this but it seems alright. As with all NT hands it is very important to me to be able to play 3N with 5332 opp 4333 and a 5-3 major suit fit. I am happy with any methods that allow this to happen, especially if the fit is unknown to the opps.
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#24 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2013-February-05, 14:58

View Postgwnn, on 2013-February-05, 11:15, said:

han, don't you transfer to 1M with 4M6D (in which case you'd rather play without Wortel2011)?


You lose nothing on this shape? I will still bid 3C, which is either a single suited slam try in hearts (if I bid 3H next) or diamonds (if I pass or bid anything else next). Since you wouldn't have bid 3H over 3D with 4-6 anyway you won't lose anything.

The shape I lose most on is 5-4 in the reds. With this mikeh bids 3C followed by 3H and I can't.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#25 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2013-February-05, 15:04

View Posthan, on 2013-February-05, 14:58, said:

You lose nothing on this shape? I will still bid 3C, which is either a single suited slam try in hearts (if I bid 3H next) or diamonds (if I pass or bid anything else next). Since you wouldn't have bid 3H over 3D with 4-6 anyway you won't lose anything.

The shape I lose most on is 5-4 in the reds. With this mikeh bids 3C followed by 3H and I can't.

I don't get it, didn't you say opener bids 3H over 3C with 3 hearts? 3D is a better contract than 3H if you are weak with 4M6D. Maybe you changed the system, I was replying to the older post of yours.
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#26 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2013-February-06, 03:58

I don't play that, that was in 2011. After 3C opener always bids 3D.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#27 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2013-February-06, 10:56

View PostJLOGIC, on 2013-February-05, 13:32, said:

I am currently playing some outer space methods including:

3C relay to 3D, either to play 3D/3M, or to make a slam try with the other minor, or for a choice of games with 5332.

3D always a slam try in partners minor

3H checkback, over which 3S always shows 3 hearts regardless of which major partner has shown (lol).

3S 6+ major slam try.

I have no idea why I play this but it seems alright. As with all NT hands it is very important to me to be able to play 3N with 5332 opp 4333 and a 5-3 major suit fit. I am happy with any methods that allow this to happen, especially if the fit is unknown to the opps.


I don't think this is very good. Some obvious red flags are that 3C-3D, 3M is not forcing. I think you want all of responder's bids and rebids at the 3-level to be forcing to maximize communication. If you want responder to sign off, he should be able to make a transfer/puppet and then pass. Also, you leave lots of room (at 3D) for a slam try in opener's minor but none seemingly in responder's minor (3C-3D, 4C?)

I might not be seeing it, but I don't see how the 3H checkback handles all the permutations for 4/4 majors, 5/4 majors, and how it gets to spades with 4S/5H when we've 8-cd fits in both.

I posted continuations earlier that I think is much better. May be more than you want to memorize.
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#28 User is offline   antonylee 

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Posted 2013-February-06, 13:54

Mostly out of laziness I just play (nearly) the same thing as over 1x-1y-1N: 3 puppet to 3 to play or for slam invite (3N=slam try in opener's minor); 3 simple checkback; 3M NF (if non-reverse).
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#29 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2013-February-06, 13:58

View Poststraube, on 2013-February-06, 10:56, said:

I don't think this is very good. Some obvious red flags are that 3C-3D, 3M is not forcing. I think you want all of responder's bids and rebids at the 3-level to be forcing to maximize communication. If you want responder to sign off, he should be able to make a transfer/puppet and then pass. Also, you leave lots of room (at 3D) for a slam try in opener's minor but none seemingly in responder's minor (3C-3D, 4C?)

I might not be seeing it, but I don't see how the 3H checkback handles all the permutations for 4/4 majors, 5/4 majors, and how it gets to spades with 4S/5H when we've 8-cd fits in both.

I posted continuations earlier that I think is much better. May be more than you want to memorize.


3H shows both majors, so you can always get to all major suit fits and the correct one. Just play 3S over 3H shows 3 hearts.

Do any methods leave a lot of room for responders minor? For instance, straight transfers would have 3S showing clubs. That seems pretty bad, and at least not worse than 3C 3D 3oM showing the other minor. Having lots of room for slam tries in openers minor is a plus IMO since that is the most important minor suit slam try, and the most common one.
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#30 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2013-February-06, 14:27

View PostJLOGIC, on 2013-February-06, 13:58, said:

3H shows both majors, so you can always get to all major suit fits and the correct one. Just play 3S over 3H shows 3 hearts.

Do any methods leave a lot of room for responders minor? For instance, straight transfers would have 3S showing clubs. That seems pretty bad, and at least not worse than 3C 3D 3oM showing the other minor. Having lots of room for slam tries in openers minor is a plus IMO since that is the most important minor suit slam try, and the most common one.


Agree opener's minor is more important.

Oh, I missed that 3H was both majors. So you leave room to show fit for opener's minor and then opener can show fit for responder's major. Interesting design. Looks like you'll play 3N with 5242, 5341, 5143 and maybe 5251, 5152 etc when opener's minor is clubs or maybe I'm still not understanding it.

Maybe you play 3C-3D, 3OM as a checkback with 5M unbalanced and you rebid 3N with the 5332s?
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#31 User is offline   lowerline 

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Posted 2013-February-11, 03:33

View Postjillybean, on 2010-November-10, 15:25, said:

(posted in A/E so that MikeH can explain the pro's & con's of transfers over 2N)

1:1
2N: ?

How do you find your 5-3 or 4-4 fit now?


Playing Wolff SO:

With 5 or 44 bid 3. Partner will show 4 before 3. After 1-1-2nt-3-3-3nt partner can correct to 4 because he knows you have a 5crd suit. After 1-1-2nt-3-3 then 3 is a cuebid that sets hearts as trumps.

Steven
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#32 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2013-February-13, 08:18

View Posthan, on 2013-February-05, 10:38, said:

There is an obvious flaw in this method, namely that responder won't know whether to correct 3NT to 4H with 5-5 in the majors. That's why I prefer to play that opener always bids at the 4-level with 4-card heart support, and bids 3H only with 2-3 in the majors. That way 3NT guarantees 2-2 and responder doesn't have to guess.

Would it not be even better to play that 3 denies a fit (<4 spades, <3 hearts); 3 shows 3 spades; and higher bids show 4 hearts, including 3NT. Over 3, 3 can now show 5-5 majors. This way you get 3 steps of bids with a heart fit below 4 (instead of 2) and you still do not have to guess with the 5-5 hand.
(-: Zel :-)

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#33 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2013-February-28, 22:39

View Postmikeh, on 2010-November-11, 13:22, said:

With a 5 card major and wanting to give a choice of 3N or 4M, transfer to the major and bid 3N (or 4N quantitative with slam interest or 5N choice of slams with slam-postive values and no grand slam interest)


Hang about isn't 4NT keycard there? Else how do you ask for aces after 1m-1-2NT for example?
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