[kenberg]

Playing semi-pick-up (meaning that we have played before but not often and have no detailed agreements) I opened 2NT on a good 2=2=5=4 shape. I try to avoid this practice but my spades were AK and my hearts Kx, and rightly or wrongly I did it. Partner was 5-5 in the majors and, bless her, she transferred to hearts, bid 3S over 3H, and let 3NT sit. On my profile I do include smolen both over 1NT and 2NT so, after 2NT, she can handle 5-4 in the majors by starting with 3C.

Q: Given that smolen is played over 2NT openings, is 2NT-3D-3H-3S expected to be 5-5? If not, what is it? As it happened, both majors split 5-1 so NT was truly important here. There was an easy nine tricks.

I realize that some (maybe many) prefer puppet over 2NT openings. That's a different debate. Assume here that, good or bad, we are playing smolen over 2NT. When 5-5 you begin with a trf to hearts?

[helene_t]

2N-3♦-3♥-3♠ could set hearts as trump, start cuebidding. Or maybe an unknown autosplinter.

Anyway, with a random p I would take it as 5-5.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi

#1 Smolen has nothing to with how to deal with 5-5 in the majors,
Smolen is used to handle 5-4 in the majors.
#2 Puppet has also nothing to with how to deal with 5-5 in the majors,
Puppet is used to detect a 5 card major with opener
#3 3D followed by 3S, showes 5-5, usually with slam interest, depends
if you have a bid for showing 5-5 in the majors direct, we use 4C,
which gets rid of Gerber, but some use 4C as Transfer to hearts
#4 3NT over 3S is natural p did hear the 5-5

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

Hey Uwe, Smolen and Puppet has everything to do with this. If you don't play Smolen because 2NT-3♣-3♦-3M shows 3oM (puppet) then 2N-3♦-3♥-3♠ is needed to show 5♥4♠. OTOH if you play Smolen you have another way of showing 5♥4♠.

That's the whole point.

[P_Marlowe]

helene_t, on Sep 27 2010, 08:41 AM, said:

Hey Uwe, Smolen and Puppet has everything to do with this. If you don't play Smolen because 2NT-3♣-3♦-3M shows 3oM (puppet) then 2N-3♦-3♥-3♠ is needed to show 5♥4♠. OTOH if you play Smolen you have another way of showing 5♥4♠.

That's the whole point.

Ok, agree - I was shortly thinking over the seq.

2NT - 3D
3H - 3S

and I was dimly remembering, that it could be 5-4,
but somehow could not recall why.

The 5-5 meaning of the seq. in question would hence belong
to Standard Stayman and Smolen.

Which is, what I happen to play.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gwnn]

I'd say 80+% of BBO has 5 hearts and 4 spades here, and 19+% has hearts and a spade cue.

[hanp]

I prefer to play these sequences as per agreement.

[ONEferBRID]

No Puppet:
2NT - 3H!
3S   - 4H = 5/5 ... for pass or correct to 4S
( but Responder Declares if 4H ) .

[Phil]

When I choose not play Puppet (and play Smolen) 2N - 3♦ - 3♥ - 3♠ is a 5-5 slam try and 2N - 3♥ - 3♠ - 4♥ is choice of games.

Playing Puppet this sequence is more of a problem.

[kenberg]

I like the 5-5 slam ivit treatment quite a bit. On the hand I had, partner would have then had to transfer to spades and bid 4H. And I pay the price, as I think many did. But I seldom open 2NT when 2-2 in the majors so this would not happen often. And it may be OK when it does. Not when the trumps split 5-1 probably.

[Zelandakh]

Phil, on Sep 27 2010, 03:04 PM, said:

When I choose not play Puppet (and play Smolen) 2N - 3♦ - 3♥ - 3♠ is a 5-5 slam try and 2N - 3♥ - 3♠ - 4♥ is choice of games.

Playing Puppet this sequence is more of a problem.

Why? I do not think it is any problem at all. Note also that if you play this then you lose 2NT - 3H - 3S - 4H as a slam try in spades which is available using puppet.

[ONEferBRID]

Phil, on Sep 27 2010, 10:04 AM, said:

When I choose not play Puppet (and play Smolen) 2N - 3♦ - 3♥ - 3♠ is a 5-5 slam try and 2N - 3♥ - 3♠ - 4♥ is choice of games.

Playing Puppet this sequence is more of a problem.

with Puppet -- well, Muppet for the 5s/4h problem hand :
You reverse the meanings of the Puppet 3H and 3NT after Responder's 3C!:
3H! = no 4 or 5 cards M
3NT! = 5 cards Hts

2NT - 3C!
3H! - 3S! ( a "reverse Smolen" type bid: 5s/4h )
3NT( 2s/3h) - 4D! (delayed transfer showing 5s/5h, slammish )
?? ( Opener can attempt to sign-off in 4H or go RKC for Hts )

whereas the choice-of-game auction is the one seen previously:
2NT - 3H!
3S - 4H ( 5s/5h )

[kenberg]

As to puppet: I get dealt hands that are 5-4 in the majors. If I bid 3C and partner bids 3NT I lose the exploration for the 5-3 fit. So with five hearts and four spades I have always thought, with 3C as puppet, that I am yo bid 3D, and then 3S over 3H, showing the 5-4 shape. I guess I don't know if that is standard for puppet players (I play puppet on request but not by choice so it's an infrequent issue) but it seems logical. When instead I have five spades and four hearts there is no perfect solution as far as I know. I start with 3C and if partner responds 3NT I pass and hope he has two rather than three spades. What other choice is there? I play puppet on request so maybe I am not up on all of the subtleties but I thought that was the puppet way of dealing with a responder hand that's 5-4. Not so? I suppose that that approach it makes sorting out game and slam more difficult with 5-5 holdings but I get dealt more 5-4s than 5-5s.

At the start I asked about 2N-3D-3H-3S when playing smolen since that is what I usually play. But I do play puppet at times, and others do, so fine, what do you all make of this auction under a puppet agreement? And if it doesn't show 5-4 then how do you handle a 5-4?

It appears that different players handle these matters in different ways so part of the issue is to guess at what might be called default standard.

[ONEferBRID]

Kenberg...

Playing Puppet:
I explained that the problem-5s/4h hand is solved by using the Muppet replies to 3C!( the post before yours ).... where you switch Opener's 3H! and 3NT! replies:
2NT - 3C!
??
  3NT! ( 5h )
  3H! ( no 4 or 5 card Major) - 3S! ( ostensibly 5s/4h )
    then Opener bids 3NT (2s/3h) or 4S ( 3s/2h )

And the 5h/4s hand shown with the transfer auction:
2NT - 3D!
3H - 3S ( 5h/4s ... not a 5/5 as in the "NO Puppet" case )

[kenberg]

VERY useful. I also like the name. I guess my eyes glazed over at first reading.


Next time someone wants to play Puppet I will tell him I prefer Muppet.

It really is a very good approach.

[hanp]

After 2NT - 3C you can also play:

3D = no 4 hearts, may have 4 spades.
. . . 3H = asks about spades
. . . . . . 3S = 3 spades.
. . . . . . 3NT = 2 spades.
. . . . . . 4-level = 4 spades.
3H = 4 or 5 hearts, not 4 spades.
. . . 3S = asks about hearts.
. . . . . . 3NT = 4 hearts.
. . . . . . 4-level = 5 hearts.
3S = 5 spades.
3NT = 4 hearts and 4 spades.

So with the smolen hand you would bid 3C and then 3H, just as you would with regular stayman.

[kenberg]

Thanks. I think these adjustments to Puppet are useful but not so well known. At least I didn't know them. I'll give them some thought. I have generally preferred smolen to puppet over 2NT mostly because of the 4-5 problem. With the solutions offered, I may actually have to rethink this.

[bucky]

P_Marlowe, on Sep 27 2010, 08:33 AM, said:

Hi

#1 Smolen has nothing to with how to deal with 5-5 in the majors,
Smolen is used to handle 5-4 in the majors.
#2 Puppet has also nothing to with how to deal with 5-5 in the majors,
Puppet is used to detect a 5 card major with opener
#3 3D followed by 3S, showes 5-5, usually with slam interest, depends
if you have a bid for showing 5-5 in the majors direct, we use 4C,
which gets rid of Gerber, but some use 4C as Transfer to hearts
#4 3NT over 3S is natural p did hear the 5-5

With kind regards
Marlowe

I disagree on #1 (and perhaps #2). The exact reason why 2NT 3♦ 3♥ 3♠ can be used to show 5-5 in majors, is due to the availability of smolen, hence no need to use two different sequences to show 4S + 5H.

Although I don't think it is standard, it does make sense to me to use this sequence for 5-5 majors. The opener can bid 3NT with doubleton in either major, 4H/4S to show preference, or 4C/4D as a form of super-accept for H/S.

[bucky]

kenberg, on Sep 28 2010, 12:10 PM, said:

Thanks. I think these adjustments to Puppet are useful but not so well known. At least I didn't know them. I'll give them some thought. I have generally preferred smolen to puppet over 2NT mostly because of the 4-5 problem. With the solutions offered, I may actually have to rethink this.

I think Han's structure is sometimes call the Romex Stayman structure. One thing I feel uncomfortable is 3NT not being natural.

Playing "standard" puppet stayman, you can also adjust to use 2NT-3NT as 5S+4H hand, therefore covering 5-4 major types (with 4S+5H you'd transfer to H then bid 3S).

In both treatments, a response of 3NT is not natural, and you would have to find another bid for natural 3NT raise (either going through 3♣, or use 3♠ as puppet to 3NT).

[Zelandakh]

And you can also play...
2NT - 3C
3D = 3-4 spades and/or 4 hearts
3M = 5+ suit
3N = 2 spades and 2-3 hearts

There are some alternatives after 2NT - 3C - 3D but arguably the most common is

3H = asks if 4 spades (many hand types possible)
3S = 4 hearts, not 4 spades
3N = 4 hearts, 4 spades, NF
4C = 4+ hearts, 4+ spades, SI
4D = 5+ spades, 4+ hearts, no SI
and you can also use 4M here for slammy (13)(54) hands too is desired.

Many dislike using 4C and 4D for similar hand types. You can choose whether to use the sequence 2NT - 3H - 3S - 4H as either pick a game or a strong slam try in spades. Since slam try hands with 5H4S are handled via 3C, you can also switch your 5H4S no SI hands to 2NT - 3D - 3H - 3NT, right-siding the contract and giving 3S as a freebie for both choice of game and slam try hands. These latter options are strictly non-standard but (to me) flow naturally from the system choices within this method.