[blackshoe]

The Skip Bid Warning regulation in the ACBL was changed many years ago. Prior to the change, a pause was mandatory. That regulation was rescinded, and replaced with "Players should [make a skip bid or stop card warning]." In the laws (and hence in regulations made supplementary to those laws) the word "should" implies that "failure to do it is an infraction jeopardizing the infractor’s rights but not often penalized." So I don't think it's correct, in general, to say that the procedure is "optional" in the sense that players can choose to use it or not. That's based on the wording of the relevant laws and regulations, of course. In practice, David is right that the regulation is administered as if it were optional in that way.

There is one caveat in the skip bid regulation: section F says

Quote

The warning is effective for all ACBL sanctioned events. For sanctioned games at clubs, the club may elect to discourage it's use and require no mandated pause.

I don't know of any clubs that do this. Note that the first sentence of this section F is even more specific that the use of the warning (or stop card) is not optional.

NB: This is section F of Chapter XII, Section A of the ACBL Codification. It is not mentioned in the Bidding Box Regulation, which is as far as most players (and directors, probably) are going to get.

[JoAnneM]

bluejak, on Apr 21 2010, 06:13 PM, said:

Of course the Stop card is completely useless in the ACBL because the regulations are pointless: its use is voluntary, probably because getting people to follow any rules is so difficult there. But it helps the game in th UK without any obvious downsides.

Trashing the ACBL gets boring after a while, but excuse my need to defend it, I am a candidate for the BOD.

The bidding box replacements that I purchased for our club, that have the short stop cards, are for the standard boxes that are used at every tournament that I have attended. I am sure that they didn't make short stop cards just for us.

The idea about pulling them out and having them ready under the bid box is good and I will suggest it.

[pran]

JoAnneM, on Apr 22 2010, 06:26 AM, said:

The bidding box replacements that I purchased for our club, that have the short stop cards, are for the standard boxes that are used at every tournament that I have attended. I am sure that they didn't make short stop cards just for us.

The idea about pulling them out and having them ready under the bid box is good and I will suggest it.

Doesn't your bid boxes (like ours) have a cleft (behind the compartment for the bid cards) intended for holding the STOP and ALERT cards so they can be easily reached when needed?

[blackshoe]

pran, on Apr 22 2010, 04:17 AM, said:

JoAnneM, on Apr 22 2010, 06:26 AM, said:

The bidding box replacements that I purchased for our club, that have the short stop cards, are for the standard boxes that are used at every tournament that I have attended.  I am sure that they didn't make short stop cards just for us. 

The idea about pulling them out and having them ready under the bid box is good and I will suggest it.

Doesn't your bid boxes (like ours) have a cleft (behind the compartment for the bid cards) intended for holding the STOP and ALERT cards so they can be easily reached when needed?

Nope. Here's a picture. It's hard to see, but there's no slot on the back of these things. (I have seen some with a slot, but the vast majority around here don't have it).

[bluejak]

Yes, but, but, but ....

That is a standard bidding box, with normal length Stop cards, which do not get lost in the box.

I know of about three designs, one as above, two with a slot at the back. I still believe that small cards and no slot is a poor design.

As for the Stop card being voluntary, perhaps I should say that Mike Flader, who answers queries on rulings for the ACBL, has told me it is voluntary. Of course, custom & practice at NABCs suggest it is voluntary.

[jeremy69]

Ever since we have had bidding boxes and, for that matter, screens in top events we have had players who simply can't be bothered. They won't use a stop card, they won't pause for them, they won't follow the alerting procedure either behind screens or at a table without them, won't write down explanations if behind screens. You can deal with this by

a. fining everyone in sight which will get you a 3 table Howell at most events
b. scrapping the processes and increasing the amount of UI
c. Making the processes compulsory where they are not and have the directing staff make more of an effort to enforce them. You will probably need an education programme as well and it will still be an uphill battle. It is much harder to enforce any rule that does not have a degree of acceptance.

[blackshoe]

If you look at all the bidding boxes for sale at Baron-Barclay, you'll see that they all come, new, with bidding cards. Some of them have the short alert and stop cards. Joanne said "replacement bidding boxes". I suspect that either someone included the wrong card set with the boxes she was talking about, or that she was actually talking about replacement bidding cards, and somebody ordered the wrong set, or filled the order with the wrong set, for the boxes the club already had.

I'm not surprised Mike Flader said that. As I said, I know that's the common position — but the words of the regulation don't actually say that. Not the only place in law or regulation where the real world interpretation and the written words are actually contradictory.

[JoAnneM]

I just checked to make sure I didn't order the wrong replacement cards.

Go to
http://shop6.mailordercentral.com/baronbar...s/products/265/
and look at items #6504 and 6506. They stop cards are short. These replacement cards are for the standard bidding box that you showed and that we own. I noticed that if you want to buy the taller stop cards you have to buy them separately.

Very sorry but I don't how to do the underlined url thing. But I am willing to learn.

[helene_t]

Funny, in JoAnne's link, if you order the stop card seperately, or if you order left-handed or symmetrical bidding cards, you get normal size stop and alert cards.

To make a link with a custom text visible and the url invisible, use the "htpp://" button.

[blackshoe]

Let me guess - JoAnne's players are putting their pass cards back in the box in front of the stop and alert cards, and that's what's making them hard to find. I think that falls in the category of "operator error".

[JoAnneM]

Where else would you put your green pass cards but in the front. Don't you believe in LIFO? (Last in, First out) Just imagine all the accidental doubles if they were in front! That would truly be operator error.

[bluejak]

Where else would you put them?

No, I reckon it is a design fault.

[Posted without seeing Jo-Anne's last post ]

[barmar]

Although the ACBL regulation says that use of the STOP card is required, it weakens this requirement by requiring that that the next player pause for the same length of time regardless. It's not nearly as useful a regulation as other organizations, who say that the next player is required to wait until the card is withdrawn.

[peachy]

barmar, on Apr 22 2010, 11:39 PM, said:

Although the ACBL regulation says that use of the STOP card is required, it weakens this requirement by requiring that that the next player pause for the same length of time regardless. It's not nearly as useful a regulation as other organizations, who say that the next player is required to wait until the card is withdrawn.

And if the stop card under non-ACBL regulation is withdrawn after five seconds instead of ten? None of the different Stop Card regulations work if players don't understand the reasons why such regulations exist. Or if they for various reasons choose not to follow them.

I have a preference for ACBL style regulation = keep it as the next-in-turn bidder's responsibility to take the mandatory pause. Simple, whether stop card was used or not.

I particularly dislike the skip bidder to take the stop card out, hold it in his left hand with outstretched arm right in my face, suspended in air or temporarily planted in front of me. I've seen this only at NABC's.

[Mbodell]

There are lots of reasons to dislike the stop regulations and practices, at least as happens in the ACBL. The following are all things that happen not infrequently with the use of the stop cards:

1. The stop cards are used to "wake up partner". You hear things like "what do you mean, you didn't see that I jumped, why do you think I used the stop card". This is even without considering the stop card preempts are weak but non-stop card preempts are sound cheating.

2. People place the stop card down and immediately remove it, thus doing nothing to help the next player keep their tempo. Here you have neither lost nor gained anything.

3. People place the stop card down and leave it down until after the next person bids. Here you will sometimes end up with people feeling bad as if you wait for the person to remove the stop card you might be accused of a BIT for being too slow, but if you bid over a "normal" person thinking it is one of this type then they may be miffed that you are bidding before they remove the stop card.

4. People grab the wrong card. I've often seen someone put out a pass card or a double card thinking it was a stop card. Usually they'll make their "skipped" bid and it will be clear it was a mistake, but sometimes the auction has moved on and the next person has made a call. This wouldn't happen with no stop card.

5. People play the stop card and don't make a jump. Sometimes they'll even say something like "oh, I didn't see you had bid" when you point out that it wasn't a skip. This kind of UI and confusion wouldn't happen with no stop card.

6. People are inconsistent with their use of the stop card. Often they try to use it, but sometimes it isn't in the bidding box or sometimes they just forget in "obviously" uncontested auctions like blackwood-response-[skip] slam where tempo on a X (or even a surprise sac) might well be a consideration.

Overall I think more problems are caused by the stop card then are solved by its use.

I'd be more in favor of its use if it incorporated a clock some time such that the procedure was place the stop card, make your bid, tap the stop card to start the countdown timer which then visibly counts down 10 seconds. At least then you'd have the gain of consistent tempo counting to offset the losses described above. Today in the ACBL you get all of the downside with little to none gain.

[mjj29]

peachy, on Apr 23 2010, 05:03 PM, said:

I particularly dislike the skip bidder to take the stop card out, hold it in his left hand with outstretched arm right in my face, suspended in air or temporarily planted in front of me. I've seen this only at NABC's.

I've recently wondered about whether I should be holding the stop card in front of LHO rather than me - given the number of LHOs who have bid while I'm holding the stop card out

[MarkDean]

I play in the ACBL. I do my best to always use it when I jump. I always put it out, place my bid down, then immediately put the stop card back. Is this how I am supposed to use it?

[blackshoe]

Mbodell, on Apr 23 2010, 06:31 PM, said:

2. People place the stop card down and immediately remove it, thus doing nothing to help the next player keep their tempo. Here you have neither lost nor gained anything.

This is in fact what the regulation says you should do, and is at least in keeping with the principle (in the ACBL) that is the next player's responsibility to control his own tempo.

[blackshoe]

MarkDean, on Apr 23 2010, 11:31 PM, said:

I play in the ACBL. I do my best to always use it when I jump. I always put it out, place my bid down, then immediately put the stop card back. Is this how I am supposed to use it?

Yes.

I used to use it religiously. Then I got tired of the fact that 99% of my opponents completely ignored it, so i stopped using it. I think that's technically incorrect, but it doesn't seem to have caused any problems.

[Vampyr]

blackshoe, on Apr 24 2010, 06:45 AM, said:

Mbodell, on Apr 23 2010, 06:31 PM, said:

2.  People place the stop card down and immediately remove it, thus doing nothing to help the next player keep their tempo.  Here you have neither lost nor gained anything.

This is in fact what the regulation says you should do, and is at least in keeping with the principle (in the ACBL) that is the next player's responsibility to control his own tempo.

It seems that using a stop card in this manner is pointless. I can see why ACBL players don't like the stop card.

I feel, on the other hand, that the stop card should be used in competitive auctions as well as after skip bids. This is the practice in some places in Europe.