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1D showing length in either minor

#1 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2004-May-27, 13:30

I am considering using a 1 opener as showing 11-15/16 points, 5+ cards in either minor. Does anyone have any experience of this or something similar?

Cheers ;)
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#2 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-May-27, 13:41

I don't have any experience with it, but I wonder what the other openings are... Probably strong ? 1M 11-15(16) with 5+ card? 2 and 2 openings? Need a bit more information m8. ;)
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#3 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2004-May-27, 13:54

Does it mean 1D opening is forcing? If it is, what would you respond with a weak hand? If not, you may have a disaster if pd has club suit. Sounds not very good idea.
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#4 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2004-May-27, 13:56

Other than 5 card majors, the other openings don't really exist yet! The obvious ideas are 1C 11-13 bal or any 17+ with a 14-16 NT, or 1C any 16+ with a 12-15 NT. I guess 2 and 2 could be natural single suiters if that was significantly better than opening these hand types with 1. I guess it could be...then 1:1, 2minor could show 5minor4H, with a 1N rebid showing a minor 2 suiter. That then raises the question of what to do with the extra bid after 1:1 - 1 could show the minor 2 suiter (1NT then asking for the longer minor), which would leave 1NT free to show something - a maximum of some desciption?

Sorry for rambling, any thoughts appreciated!
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#5 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2004-May-27, 13:59

1 wouldn't be forcing as a limited opener, but I don't know whether it would ever be right to pass it without either holding diamonds, or a hand that strongly suggests partner holds diamonds. Either 1NT as 'bid your (longer) minor' or 2 as 'pass or correct' would work for reaching a safe part score.
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#6 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2004-May-27, 18:38

Much better will be if 1 show 5 cards in unknown major, like in one strong pass system. This will allow to open with exactly 4 cards in M 1/ and have lot of fast arriving to 3NT/4M.
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#7 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2004-May-28, 02:40

So, the 1 is..

11-15 hcp
Unbalanced
5+ clubs or 5+ diamonds
May have a side 4-card SPADE, but not hearts (would open 2 or 2)

Did I get this right?
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#8 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2004-May-28, 02:45

whereagles, on May 28 2004, 03:40 AM, said:

So, the 1 is..

11-15 hcp
Unbalanced
5+ clubs or 5+ diamonds
May have a side 4-card SPADE, but not hearts (would open 2 or 2)

Did I get this right?

Correct except on your last point, 2 and 2 openers would promise a single suiter. With a long minor and 4 hearts 1 would still be opened.
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#9 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2004-May-28, 02:53

mishovnbg, on May 27 2004, 07:38 PM, said:

Much better will be if 1 show 5 cards in unknown major, like in one strong pass system. This will allow to open with exactly 4 cards in M 1/ and have lot of fast arriving to 3NT/4M.
Misho

That's quite interesting...like Matchpoint Precision, only backwards (and probably better on frequency and other stuff). Do you have any more info?
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#10 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-May-28, 03:43

I play MIDMAC which has some of your ideas.
1M = 5 card major
2c/2d = natural 6 card
1d = no 4 card major
1c = 4 card major
1nt = strong 20+

our 1d has some similarity to your definition of 1d.
I like midmac, i think its a good, easy and fun system to play.
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#11 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-May-28, 04:12

Hmmm, if you play your 1 as long suit in any minor singlesuited, then I would play 1M from 4 cards (Majors first principle). This would enable you to use only 1 extra bid for unbalanced hands with both minors. After 1 however, you'll have a nice preemptive principle imo: 2, 3, 4, 5 all P/C :P
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#12 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2004-May-28, 04:25

Free, on May 28 2004, 05:12 AM, said:

Hmmm, if you play your 1 as long suit in any minor singlesuited, then I would play 1M from 4 cards (Majors first principle). This would enable you to use only 1 extra bid for unbalanced hands with both minors. After 1 however, you'll have a nice preemptive principle imo: 2, 3, 4, 5 all P/C :P

Is it playable to open all 11-15s with 4 card majors 1M? Most variants of MOSCITO seem to avoid this, either using transfer openings for the extra step or removing hands from the 1M openers to other bids (eg 2 with both majors).

And yes, all club bids being pass or correct is quite nice!
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#13 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-May-28, 04:33

It's not completely necessary to bid 2 with both Majors. The problem (I think) with moscito openings is that step 1 is usually a relay, not natural. And with both Majors, you'll get into trouble sometimes. This can be avoided by bidding 1 as a relay OR natural, and adjust the relay scheme so you can stay at 2-level... But that will probably be no good for the relays itself.

Seems like you'll have to use 1NT and 2 (as usual) to get to all your bids if you want to avoid ALL troubles in an easy way :P
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#14 User is offline   MesSer 

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Posted 2004-May-28, 05:24

This is something I have played in a weak 8-12 limited openings system for quite some time now. But, after reading through some early moscito notes we decided to start using transfer opening bids instead and just use a very simple scheme.

1D = H
1H = S
1S = clubs or any minor (depending on how much you'll like to adapt from moscito)

Seems better to me since opp will find it harder to interfere with 1H/1S over your "showing minor suits"-bid with 1S instead of 1D as in your system...
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#15 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2004-May-28, 13:56

The standard symmetric relay 1 is similar.

It shows:

11-15 hcp, unbalanced, two or three-suited with no five-card major.

It differs from what you describe by excluding all single-suited hands and by only guaranteeing a four-card minor in 4441 hands.

One partner of mine describes this as essentially 'natural'. He compares this with standard systems. He says in standard systems you try to show one suit with one bid with the symmetric diamond you try to show two suits with two bids. Although our ways of showing two suits was sometimes artificial.

This structure works quite well and we have developed some specialized continuations. For example 1NT/2NT rebids show both minors; negative doubles are minor suit oriented etc
Wayne Burrows

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#16 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2004-May-29, 08:02

Thanks everyone. Free - I think MesSer is right, we managed to create an inferior version of Moscito!

Wayne - cheers, that was what I wanted to hear! Have your results when you opened it been reasonable? A couple of people had suggested to me that the ambiguity would hurt us much more seriously than it would hurt the opps.

My latest line of thinking, incase anyone is interested - not likely, I know! - is this:

1 any 16+
1 any unbal hand with a 5 card minor except club single suiters
1,1 5 card majors
1NT 12-15
2 Club single suiter

Responses to 1:
1,1 natural 4 card
1NT INV+, opener bids 2m with min or something else with max
Minor bids - pass or correct.

After 1:1,
1 = both minors, 1NT then asks for the longer
1NT = 5D4S or 6D, 2C then asks
2 = 5C4S
2 = good raise

After 1:1,

1NT = 5D4H/4C
2 = 5C4D/4H
2 = 6D
2 = good raise
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#17 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-May-30, 08:29

LOL, seems like now you made some kind of "petit carreau" version, but a worse one (again) :) Petit Carreau opens goes follows:

1 16+
1 all other bids which don't aplie
1M 5+ card, 10-15
1NT = 14-16
2NT = 10-15 55+m
all other bids (entire 2-level) are FREE (!!!) for anything you like!

after 1:
1 weak relay, doesn't need - this is the weakness of the system
1 4+ card
1NT 11+ HCP, forcing bid, asks shape - and this has a very nice (and simple) relay structure imo

I've played it a lot in my local club, and it works quite well. It has however some minor flaws in it, some things which aren't expert bidding, but it's natural and simple most of the time (that's why it's the club's system ofcourse, anyone can play it after a little study). Haven't had any bad results with it, crazy as it might sound :D
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#18 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2004-May-30, 09:02

Free, on May 30 2004, 09:29 AM, said:

LOL, seems like now you made some kind of "petit carreau" version, but a worse one (again) :) Petit Carreau opens goes follows:

1 16+
1 all other bids which don't aplie
1M 5+ card, 10-15
1NT = 14-16
2NT = 10-15 55+m
all other bids (entire 2-level) are FREE (!!!) for anything you like!

after 1:
1 weak relay, doesn't need - this is the weakness of the system
1 4+ card
1NT 11+ HCP, forcing bid, asks shape - and this has a very nice (and simple) relay structure imo

I've played it a lot in my local club, and it works quite well. It has however some minor flaws in it, some things which aren't expert bidding, but it's natural and simple most of the time (that's why it's the club's system ofcourse, anyone can play it after a little study). Haven't had any bad results with it, crazy as it might sound :D

An inferior version? :D Sorry, I disagree! I think a 12-15 NT is a worthwhile sacrifice to make the 1 opener actually show something. What would be nice would be if I could work out a decent response structure to 1 being any 5+minor unbal, then I can make my 2 opener show something funny and weak! Any suggestions? What are the continuations after PC 1 relay?

Cheers
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#19 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-May-30, 09:44

MickyB, on May 31 2004, 12:02 AM, said:

Free, on May 30 2004, 09:29 AM, said:

LOL, seems like now you made some kind of "petit carreau" version, but a worse one (again)  :D   Petit Carreau opens goes follows:

1 16+
1 all other bids which don't aplie
1M 5+ card, 10-15
1NT = 14-16
2NT = 10-15 55+m
all other bids (entire 2-level) are FREE (!!!) for anything you like!

after 1:
1 weak relay, doesn't need - this is the weakness of the system
1 4+ card
1NT 11+ HCP, forcing bid, asks shape - and this has a very nice (and simple) relay structure imo

I've played it a lot in my local club, and it works quite well.  It has however some minor flaws in it, some things which aren't expert bidding, but it's natural and simple most of the time (that's why it's the club's system ofcourse, anyone can play it after a little study).  Haven't had any bad results with it, crazy as it might sound  :D

An inferior version? :D Sorry, I disagree! I think a 12-15 NT is a worthwhile sacrifice to make the 1 opener actually show something. What would be nice would be if I could work out a decent response structure to 1 being any 5+minor unbal, then I can make my 2 opener show something funny and weak! Any suggestions? What are the continuations after PC 1 relay?

Cheers

First you need to know something else. After 1, 1 can be bid with 4, but then it's usually balanced. 1 is only bid with unbalanced hands with at least 4s.

1-1
?

1 = 4 card obligated to bid, even with longer minor
1NT = (semi)balanced
2m = 5+m, unbal, NO 4 card

Game isn't possible anymore, so usually we don't look for it. Only problem is to find the 4-4 fit sometimes, but then opps usually have s and they bid them :)

About the weak openings, as I mentioned before, I really like Lorenzo-two's when NV in 1st and 2nd hand:
2 = 0-7 HCP, 4+, no 4 card M, longer or equal as
2 = 0-7 HCP, 4+, no 4 card M, longer as
2 = 0-7 HCP, 4+, can have longer m, longer or equal as
2 = 0-7 HCP, 4+, can have longer m, longer as
Alert pass as 8-10 HCP :D
V this is too risky, perhaps Ekren or so?
3rd hand play 2 weak 44+M, 2 minimulti, 2M Muiderberg B)
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