[sceptic]

Do you think the world would be a better place if adults did not contaminate thier kids with thier own views on Religion, Politics and Racism

[DrTodd13]

This is an offensive question and a dangerous suggestion. It assumes that a bunch of bureaucrats in the school system are better placed to decide on truth and proper values and then to insist that everyone conform. This reminds me of a Brave New World. Children are going to soak up whatever they are exposed to whether that be from parents, from teachers, or from TV. If parents don't do anything, you wind up with self-absorbed, state worshipping, consumers. This is exactly the kind of people that the state wants. Truth and morality are ultimately considered either unknowable or non-existent. If you don't think that the state teaches some form of racism then ask yourself what nationalism is? Nationalism teaches that you are to prefer the benefit of one kind of people that are near you compared to a typically different kind of people farther away. Draw some arbitrary line and then prohibit people from pursuing their own happiness on the other side of the border in order to benefit those already on this side of the border.

[joshs]

sceptic, on Dec 28 2007, 12:23 PM, said:

Do you think the world would be a better place if adults did not contaminate thier kids with thier own views on Religion, Politics and Racism

Boy thats a loaded question. Speaking as a jew, you can't very easily just one day say "I am interested in judiasm, let me decide to be a jew." In order for my child to have any idea if they like judiasm, they need an immersion in jewish life, which involves lots of work (and probably requires learning Hebrew). Fundamental to judiasm (as oppossed to chistianity) is the notion that "from actions come beliefs". there is an emphasis on what you do, not on what you beleive, just as there is much more of an emphesis on this world, as oppossed to the next...

Anyway, lets temporarily ignore the ritualistic issues and the behavioral issues associated with "beliefs", although I fundamentally think you can't ignore those.

How can you not teach values and ideas to your kids? If you tell you child to not hit your neighbor's kid you are imparting values. Everything you do or say carries moral content, and typically political content as well. Whether you say "I always vote for republicans because they believe in traditional family values" or just merely teach those values to your kids or merely act according to those values your actions will have a similar impact on your child. I you beat your child that will impart values. If you instead talk to your child that imparts values.

This is not to say that your children's beliefs will be wholy determined by your "actions" but it does have influence...So I think the question is close to meaningless.

[EricK]

[quote name='joshs' date='Dec 28 2007, 07:10 PM'] [quote name='sceptic' date='Dec 28 2007, 12:23 PM'] Speaking as a jew, you can't very easily just one day say "I am interested in judiasm, let me decide to be a jew." In order for my child to have any idea if they like judiasm, they need an immersion in jewish life... [/quote]
But if you immerse them in Jewish life you are depriving them of the chance to be immersed in, say, a Buddhist life.

As to the OP, rather than not expose children to any religious or political beliefs, it would be better to expose them to as many religious and political beliefrs as possible. This is really the only way to allow them to make an enlightened choice. And as a bonus it will tend to steer them away from the more extrem viewpoints.

[sceptic]

Quote

Boy thats a loaded question. Speaking as a jew, you can't very easily just one day say "I am interested in judiasm

Yes granted, but it is a serious question

I am a non believer and by that I mean, I do not beleive in the existance of God, any God for that matter and I accept that people are entitled to thier beliefs and I respect that, it is their belief, even though I actually believe that the same people, if their parents were Muslims or Quakers or Jehovahs witnesses, then that is what their belief would be

you see what I am trying to get at is, that children will follow in their parents footsteps, how many Muslim kids brought up, suddenly change to Judism or Catholosism aged 18. is it not fair to say once brought up in a religion then that is what you bec ome and that main point I am making is that THere is no choice for these kids, their parents make them what they are


the same applies to a lesser degree with politics and perhaps more so for racist views

I also disagree with Dr Todd that it is an offensive question, it is a question he may feel uncomfortable with but it is a question and that is all it is

as for a dangerous suggestion, why is it a dangerous suggestion (perhaps because you do not like the possible answers) ?

[sceptic]

Quote

Children are going to soak up whatever they are exposed to

I believe that this is true

[mike777]

sceptic, on Dec 28 2007, 12:23 PM, said:

Do you think the world would be a better place if adults did not contaminate thier kids with thier own views on Religion, Politics and Racism

Interesting idea.

Sort of reminds me of one of the truly great books on parenting called Lord of the Flies.

[sceptic]

Quote

Boy thats a loaded question. Speaking as a jew, you can't very easily just one day say "I am interested in judiasm, let me decide to be a jew." In order for my child to have any idea if they like judiasm, they need an immersion in jewish life, which involves lots of work (and probably requires learning Hebrew). Fundamental to judiasm (as oppossed to chistianity) is the notion that "from actions come beliefs". there is an emphasis on what you do, not on what you beleive, just as there is much more of an emphesis on this world, as oppossed to the next...

I hope I am not being offensive here, but I would like to know something, whilst I accept what you say is probally correct from your prospective, what do you teach your children as a balancing view on religion say "percentage wise" how much of other religious view points do you put into a positive light for that child to make a concious decision and where do you tell them that they need to make a decision about what religion they may want to follow of their own choice

[joshs]

[quote name='EricK' date='Dec 28 2007, 02:25 PM'] [quote name='joshs' date='Dec 28 2007, 07:10 PM'] [quote name='sceptic' date='Dec 28 2007, 12:23 PM'] Speaking as a jew, you can't very easily just one day say "I am interested in judiasm, let me decide to be a jew." In order for my child to have any idea if they like judiasm, they need an immersion in jewish life... [/QUOTE]
But if you immerse them in Jewish life you are depriving them of the chance to be immersed in, say, a Buddhist life.

As to the OP, rather than not expose children to any religious or political beliefs, it would be better to expose them to as many religious and political beliefrs as possible. This is really the only way to allow them to make an enlightened choice. And as a bonus it will tend to steer them away from the more extrem viewpoints. [/quote]
That is correct. It is not possible to offer all possible lifes to your child.

You can offer them:
a Nothing
b A Choice between Nothing and Judiasm
c. A choice between Budism and Judiasm and Nothing (where Budism and Judiasm are tought less in depth, and you can't possibly be immersed since you are learning a competing set of practices and beliefs)


Its of course possible that you can teach your child more then one thing. but you can't teach everything. This is like telling me that I should not teach my child to speak english because what if my child prefers french, and I am forcing english on him/her....

Teaching your child something usually gives them a choice, teaching them nothing usualy does not offer a choice....

As to your more the merrier. Its nice to say that, and I am all for exposing people to more things, but there is a big difference between the 30 second cartoon version of ideas/lifestyles and actually teaching them about these things. You certainly can't teach someone how to live a jewish life as part of a survey of religions, and I don't think budism is that much easier.

Having said all that, I used to be a part of a weekly inter-religous discussion group back when I lived in DC (discussion once a week and visited one of the members house of worship once a month) and that was a very edjucational experience (although I can't say what its like to live my life immersed in a different religion). I have always thought that pluralism was a good thing. But I don't think you can ever escape Rousseau's Paradox of Freedom....

[kenberg]

How do you not teach religion or politics? Of course parents will teach what they believe.

I'm reminded of a conversation I had when I was young (12 or so) . The Korean War was in full swing and I ardently followed the progress everyday. My mother was adamantly against war. In exasperation she told me

Mom: All wars are about oil

Me: Mom, I don't think there is any oil in Korea

Mom: There is.

Me: Who says so?

Mom: They are fighting there, there's oil there.

Parents don't have the luxury of non-committal. They have to raise their kids, and how else but by what they believe to be true? Most of us survive.

[Fluffy]

I feel like my parents didn't influence me much on politics/religion/racism (my grand father did). Am I deceiving myself?, Does everyone feel the same?

I agree you would get rid of Nationalism, racism and other bad stuff if the childs would grew up in another country. But why would you like to destroy something so good as religion? .

I am pretty sure there are people who think it is ok to get rid of politics/religion or racism/religion but keeping the other hehe.

And I am also pretty sure that if you got rid of the 3 of them they would reappear later.

[joshs]

sceptic, on Dec 28 2007, 02:32 PM, said:

Quote

Boy thats a loaded question. Speaking as a jew, you can't very easily just one day say "I am interested in judiasm

Yes granted, but it is a serious question

I am a non believer and by that I mean, I do not beleive in the existance of God, any God for that matter and I accept that people are entitled to thier beliefs and I respect that, it is their belief, even though I actually believe that the same people, if their parents were Muslims or Quakers or Jehovahs witnesses, then that is what their belief would be

you see what I am trying to get at is, that children will follow in their parents footsteps, how many Muslim kids brought up, suddenly change to Judism or Catholosism aged 18. is it not fair to say once brought up in a religion then that is what you bec ome and that main point I am making is that THere is no choice for these kids, their parents make them what they are


the same applies to a lesser degree with politics and perhaps more so for racist views

I also disagree with Dr Todd that it is an offensive question, it is a question he may feel uncomfortable with but it is a question and that is all it is

as for a dangerous suggestion, why is it a dangerous suggestion (perhaps because you do not like the possible answers) ?

Yeah, but my point is how many kids not brought up on anything become jewish later. In fact, there is a whole spectrum of beliefs and practices, but those that "choose judiasm" as an adult usually end up at one of the extremes, and I don't think thats an accident.

Try going to a Conservative or Orthodox service and see if you have any idea what is going on. There is an extreme selection bias here becomes someone has to put many years of effort (as an adult) to be able to get much out of the experience and they have to decide to put this effort in before they see the value of the experience. Hence it hardly ever happens. In general, you can't choose to do something that you were never taught how to do.

Christianity does not involve nearly that much work, but there still is stuff to learn.

Someone can't choose between playing baseball and soccer without playing enough baseball and soccer to be able to value the experience. Religion is even more complex since religous behavior involves every second of your life. As my mother likes saying the fundamental goal of a religous life is to make every moment holy, to recognize the presence of the divine in every moment and in every action that we take. This is not just about where we go on the weekend and what prayers we say.

[sceptic]

Quote

Yeah, but my point is how many kids not brought up on anything become jewish later.

ok, I concede I do not know, but how many do you think >?

[joshs]

sceptic, on Dec 28 2007, 02:38 PM, said:

Quote

Boy thats a loaded question. Speaking as a jew, you can't very easily just one day say "I am interested in judiasm, let me decide to be a jew." In order for my child to have any idea if they like judiasm, they need an immersion in jewish life, which involves lots of work (and probably requires learning Hebrew). Fundamental to judiasm (as oppossed to chistianity) is the notion that "from actions come beliefs". there is an emphasis on what you do, not on what you beleive, just as there is much more of an emphesis on this world, as oppossed to the next...

I hope I am not being offensive here, but I would like to know something, whilst I accept what you say is probally correct from your prospective, what do you teach your children as a balancing view on religion say "percentage wise" how much of other religious view points do you put into a positive light for that child to make a concious decision and where do you tell them that they need to make a decision about what religion they may want to follow of their own choice

Yeah, this is hard. Especially since some religions/belief systems involve the idea that all others are very wrong. Hopefully, your belief system is more enlightened so you can teach your child the value of your religion while also teaching your child that there are other ways to live.

This is a big difference between religions. Jews, for instance, believe that non Jews can be good people and can go to heaven. In fact, the main difference is that Jews have more rules thay have to follow. God told us how to live a good life, but it involes more work in order to get the rewards.

Some religions fundamentally believe that people from other religions can't go to heaven. that creates a much larger obstical to teaching your children pluralistic ideas...

[macaw]

The only reason to have children is to brain wash them. Can't imagine why you'd want to have them otherwise

[joshs]

Kahil Gibran from The Prophet:

And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children."

And he said:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.

For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.

Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;

For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

[pclayton]

Teach by example. They'll figure out the rest on their own.

We are raising our kids as Catholic. When they leave the house they can make up their own minds. I don't believe a 13 y.o. is capable of 'choosing' a religion, unless they are exceptionally intelligent or worldly.

Sure it would be nice to attend the baptisms of my grandkids, but I won't hang myself if it doesn't happen.

I tend to be a Libertarian. I can't tell what my kids will be.

Of all the things I have zero tolerance for in my house its racism. Stay out past your curfew, minor offense. Drink or smoke a little, more of an issue.

Call someone a nigger or a wetback? I get medieval

[sceptic]

Quote

Yeah, this is hard. Especially since some religions/belief systems involve the idea that all others are very wrong. Hopefully, your belief system is more enlightened so you can teach your child the value of your religion while also teaching your child that there are other ways to live.

My issue with religion is one that, I never bothered to teach my own children anything about religion at all, and I feel that this is possibly not the best way, I also made a concious effort not to make some of my more radical views open to my kids, they probably know them as they are hard to disguise but I have never tried to force my opinions on my kids, (inadvertatly none of my children have a religious belief that I am aware of) whilst I have no interest in converting them to a religious belief, one thing I do think I have not been good at as a parent is making them aware of other peoples beliefs

as I am now of the opinion that in the world as it is becoming, we all need to understand each others beliefs to become more tolerant of each other and that our own behaviours need to be adapted for modern day living i.e a good example being Muslims living in a country that does not practice or possibly recognise its religions laws and probably think some of its practices and attitudes are archaic to say the least


This is not my view on politics or racism as polled

[sceptic]

Quote

wetback

what is a wet back?

[pclayton]

sceptic, on Dec 28 2007, 12:54 PM, said:

Quote

wetback

what is a wet back?

A derogatory term for a Hispanic.