[pclayton]

jonottawa, on Oct 25 2007, 10:45 AM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 25 2007, 03:16 PM, said:

Yes, I'm all for personal responsibility too - to a point.

Maybe you can explain to me how I'm supposed to prepare for a 7.0 earthquake (that we are long overdue for)? Short of moving my family out of California, there isn't a whole lot I can do.

Here's what I'm hearing you say:

"I'm all for requiring others to take personal responsibility for their decisions. I just don't think I should have to." (In other words, the "point" at which you stop being "all for it" is the point at which it's expected of you.)

"Explain to me how I'm supposed to prepare for a natural disaster that's inevitable and long overdue when I can just continue to enjoy the benefits of living here and then run crying to the federal government for a big handout when that inevitable, long-overdue disaster strikes."

As usual, you are hearing / reading things that aren't being said.

I never said I would be looking for a handout from the feds if my house was destroyed. I'd be much more concerned about the displaced families that were caught off guard.

I do appreciate your Libertarian leanings however. I hope you feel the same way about welfare.

[jdonn]

jonottawa, on Oct 25 2007, 02:43 PM, said:

What's "totally ridiculous" is choosing to live below sea level in a region that is susceptible to hurricanes without having a system of levees in place, financed by the people who choose to live there and capable of withstanding a "somewhat stronger than average" storm.

Didn't they have a system of levees in place, which had always worked before? However strong they make them, there is some finite chance a storm even stronger comes along and destroys them. But the nice thing about that is they even had a backup plan, they were also helping to finance a federal agency designed to help them in just such a situation. Oh wait...

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What's "totally ridiculous" is making decisions based on what your insurance company tells you or arguing that people who make such decisions aren't responsible when those decisions work out badly.

So now it's everyone's job to be an expert in everything? And if your lawyer gives you bad law advice is that your fault? What about when you bring your car in to get fixed, they tell you your engine is fine, then it breaks down a while later. Give me a break. That's why we have professionals, such as insurance companies, to guide us in areas that we don't know much about but need to use.

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What's "totally ridiculous" is believing that insurance companies are going to charge prohibitively high premiums for events that are so unlikely that you think someone shouldn't even bother to insure against them at all.

Some/many/most of those people lived below the poverty level. Any amount of money for something they expect not to need is prohibitively expensive. So I assume by totally ridiculous you meant extremely common. I forgive your typo.

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What's "totally ridiculous" is believing that not being able to afford insurance makes you blameless for not having insurance.

So now it's just the fault of all poor people for being poor, and thus the government shouldn't help them when a disaster occurs for which they were too poor to prepare? That is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

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What's "totally ridiculous" is portraying what I've argued above and in previous posts as implying that we all ought to move to underground bunkers in South Dakota.

I was merely taking your lead when you portrayed what I said about getting insurance advice from your insurance company as getting insurance advice from a magic 8 ball.

But if that's not what you were saying, then where do you suggest we go that is fully prepared for any conceivable natural disaster? After all I don't want to take the chance of anything happening since it would be all my fault.

[mycroft]

If you're American, then it is your fault if you're poor. That's the whole point. What annoys me is that it seems like it's not your fault if you're not poor, but don't feel like preparing anyway. Oh, and the fact that I, with my good education in a marketable field, very good job, ability to travel every once in a while and comfortable, am still "poor" by this definition. Yes, I have appropriate insurance, but I'm sure that there are things that could come through that could wipe out my house or my mind that the insurance wouldn't pay for through one or more of their many exceptions.

It's not that people didn't have fire insurance as much as it's almost impossible to get fire insurance. Why? Because the insurance companies can't make money on policies that they have to pay out on every 7 years. So they don't insure. Or they make it ludicrously expensive. "some money for piece of mind" is one thing. 20% of the price of the house/year is not "some money".

You can't *get* flood insurance in NO or the eastern coast south of the Carolinas. Not if you've claimed before, anyway.

Don't live there? Yeah, okay, sure. If you can. After all, I can and do. But if one is American and works in petroleum engineering education, it's really hard to be based anywhere except Houston and deal with the hurricanes, or Dallas and deal with the tornados, or...

The idea of a socialist state is that there are some things that all citizens of the country should be protected against, and it is a duty of everybody who gains anything from being in that country to allow the state to do that. I don't suggest all things in that (ooh, here's a bad word) "safety net"; but "not being invaded, not needing bodyguards and home guards to be sure that I'm not robbed or assaulted on my daily rounds, roads to travel on, water, sewer and garbage, some basic level of medical care - if for no other reason than it stops his contagion from infecting me, and on the topic at hand, protection from freakish things that happen to the country, but no single person can really prepare for" sound about right.

On the other hand, if people had to pay "real price" for, say, living in Southern California or Florida, the population density of the U.S. would change dramatically in 20 years or so. Oh, and 50 million or so people who couldn't financially adapt to the change would die.

But they're poor, and it's their fault.
Michael.

[jonottawa]

jdonn, on Oct 25 2007, 07:14 PM, said:

Saying something is inevitable is sure brilliant after it happens. If nothing that big had happened there before then what makes it inevitable? Now we can't move anywhere where there is a chance anything could happen? Sounds good, I'll split an underground bunker in South Dakota with you.

Josh, I'm going to have to pass on moving into that underground bunker in South Dakota with you.

The good news is that Michael sounds keen to move into a nice beachhouse with you. Great property. Right on the ocean. Of course, when the tide moves in it's IN the ocean, but that's what the government is for, right? To protect its citizens against freakish events like the moon's gravitation and whatnot. Just rebuild at low tide on Uncle Sam's dime.

If you CAN'T GET 'tide insurance' or 'flood insurance' because it would be prohibitively expensive, that's a huge red flag that the behavior you're pursuing is irrational, Michael.

Then he goes on this '50 million people would die' rant. Get a grip.

When I lived in Ottawa, I didn't walk down to the end of the street and knock on Trudeau/Mulroney/Chretien's door and ask him to shovel my walk for me. I didn't ask him to pay for my storm windows or to help defray the cost of switching them in and out every spring and fall.

Choose to live where you want. Take responsibility for the well-known, recurring hazards that that area is exposed to. Accept the consequences if you don't.

[mike777]

"Choose to live where you want. Take responsibility for the well-known, recurring hazards that that area is exposed to. Accept the consequences if you don't."


I think most of us can agree with your clear statement.


I also understand many do not believe that they have a duty to others, in this case, Americans to America.
Just ask what duty High School students feel they have to America?

At the very least to feed the hungry, heal the sick, and give shelter to the homeless.


I do believe I have a duty to help others, esp in a Katrina situation or a level 7 earthquake. Ya I may bitch about how unprepared, foolish they/some/many acted in doing so little ahead of time but I do not think any of that absolves me of my duty.

Now do I think I should subsidize hurricane insurance in Florida, Heck NO!

Again I understand many disagree.

[helene_t]

Rain, on Oct 22 2007, 10:14 PM, said:

Why are there natural fires every year in that region?

Maybe it has something to do with forest management. I can imagine commercial, monoculture forests being more prone to large-scale fires than more diverse, natural forests.
Also, in Australia the aboriginals used to induce minor fires as a hunting tool, which kept the forests open and therefore less prone to large-scale fires. Dono about California.

Finally, in a natural ecosystem, prevalence of fires will favor fire-resistance. Presumably, those trees that are likely to survive a fire are also less likely to spread the fire. OTOH, there are trees whose seeds survive the fire and in fact require fire to mature (and ashes make the ground fertile).

[mycroft]

Okay, here's the choice for millions of people - find a place to live in your home town, or be homeless where it's safe.

Ottawa - I bet that water damage insurance without a massive deductible is pretty much unattainable for any of the older properties - say anything built before 1950. Especially if there's been a burst pipe already from the cold.

There are "extraordinary dangers" anywhere. There are also insane people who should know better - including building clifftop houses in Greater Vancouver in a known erosion zone, and then wondering where the backyard went.

But there are many millions of people born in the U.S. who literally can't help where they live, and they know that eventually it's going to get hit by a tornado/slide into the Pacific/hurricane flood/be broken into/...

And what do you say to the West Indians, who are 100% certain, no matter where they could possibly move to without immigration, which is largely out of their control, to be hit by a Cat. 3+ hurricane in their lives? Sorry, you shouldn't have been born in your country?

Feh. I know I am lucky to have been born in and live in an area that is shielded from most catastrophic weather. I know that others aren't.
Michael.