BBO Discussion Forums: R.U.N.T. vs The Overcall Structure - BBO Discussion Forums

Having played against Twineham, Hodges, Laycock, and Spaulding -The overcall structure
in the late eighties early nineties, it is a very effective structure especially the jump
overcalls. My main concern is that most people dont run into it enough to have any idea of what to do against
it which gives them a distinct advantage when using it.

So I read in one description of Overcall Structure (a variant) that they did somersaults not to make a power double with shortness in the opponent's suit. Their solution for big takeout hands was to use the cue bid. So...

1C ?
.....dbl-balanced OR 18+ with a suit
.....1N-weak takeout of clubs
.....2C-Michaels OR strong takeout of clubs

but this puts a lot of pressure on 2C to be both things. Advancer has to assume majors and then the 2C bidder has to rebid 3D. That's getting high.

How about...


1C ?
.....dbl-balanced OR 18+ with a suit
.....1N-weak takeout of clubs
.....2C-strong takeout of clubs
.....2N-hearts and diamonds
.....3C-majors
.....4C-spades and diamonds

Now with the power double, we have lots of room over 1C. We can use a Hubert negative or transfers or....

After 1D it's a bit more tricky because we have less room. So how about dbl starting a force to the point of 1N?

1D ?
.....dbl-balanced OR 18+ with a suit
..........1H-hearts, f
...............1S-spades, f
..........1S-spades, f


Let's say one partner retires in NT...well we have 2-way nfm available to make invitations and initiate game forces.

The point of this is that it would handle a variety of balanced hands with only one major. We save bidding room when we need room to find a fit. When we have takeout shape and have a bid to communicate this (1N or the cue bid) then partner has a much better idea of whether we have a fit and which suit that fit is.

Still not sure I like any of this. What do others think?

The version of OC I learned did not have a strong "takeout" bid per se. You pick to either show strong balanced (power double) or two suited (maybe 4-4). All two suitors combos and strengths are covered:

Cue - two suits touching the suit cue'd, unlimited
Roman jumps - suit bid and next higher one, limited
2N - one of the Roman combos (adjacent suits), 4.5 losers or stronger

 rbforster, on 2012-December-20, 00:03, said:

Do you like Roman jumps? I'm sure they're useful when they come up, but I would think ordinary preempts are a lot more common.

 straube, on 2012-December-20, 05:48, said:

They seem good, and I like them for several reasons:

- preempt hands can sometimes overcall or preempt at a higher level, so they aren't all lost
- they are hard to defend against because they are natural and non forcing, as well as consuming lots of space
- they allow finding 4-4 major fits that may be lost when overcaller is minimum and can't bid again
- they offer some useful negative inferences when partner overalls instead

At a given strength level and unconditional on the opening bid, a specific two suited combo with 4=5 or longer is roughly as likely as a classic weak two shape. With a weak two in the 4-10 range vs a Roman Jump with 8-15, I think the Roman one is going to be the same unconditionally and only a bit less frequent due to the lower strength ranges being more common given the opponents' opening bid. I'm not sure how the expected shortness in opener's suit effects the odds of the Roman vs single-suited shapes, but it's not obviously going to matter much.

Haven't tested this. Looking at...

1C
.....dbl-power double, usually a balanced hand but could be off shape
..........2D Hubert negative or even substitute your own strong club structure here
.....1N-takeout, 8-13
.....2C-takeout, 14+
.....2N-reds
.....3C-majors
.....4C-top and bottom

1D
.....dbl-power double, usually a balanced hand but could be off shape, puts us in a force until 1N or higher
..........1H-natural
..........1S-natural
..........1N-weak
..........2C-wide ranging
.....1N-takeout, 8-13
.....2C-natural
.....2D-takeout, 14+
.....2N-hearts and clubs
.....3D-majors
.....4D-top and bottom

1H
.....dbl-takeout
.....1N-natural

1S-
.....dbl-takeout
..........1N-lebensohl (weak heand)
..........2L-constructive

Over 1C, if you are going down this road, it's much better to play 1D as the takeout hand and 1NT as 4M5D or 6D constructive.

Though I prefer 1D as a takeout double (very loose) and 1D as 15-18 bal

 PhilKing, on 2012-December-23, 12:52, said:

Have you actually played this? Its something I pondered around 5 years ago with OS, but it felt very much "out there".

 PhilKing, on 2012-December-23, 12:52, said:

I've never played these methods so appreciate any comments from folks who have. I thought that using 1N as takeout was especially useful over their minor specifically because our advancer has a pretty good idea who has what for fit, but the opening side is disadvantaged. If you use 1D as takeout, it's no doubt safer, but you let the opponents have the 1-level for finding out whether they have a 4-4 or better major suit fit. You're saying 1D as takeout is better nonetheless?

Also, I do wonder about the legalities of both 1D as takeout and 1N showing diamonds...for the GCC anyway.

What's your take on the power double anyway? What do you think of 1D dbl creating a force through 1N? Using a cue bid as a bigger takeout hand? Thanks

 Phil, on 2012-December-23, 12:58, said:

No, its in the draft stage. I was playing something more complicated imvolving 1M as 3-4M 5+m, but it was just too tough to remember all the agreements we need in competition

After we over call 1D (15-18 bal), I was thinking:

1H nat weak (can be 4 if desperate)
1S puppet to 1NT, then system on
1NT not sure yet, but was thinking of either: 1) 44M weak 2) 44+m weak
2C weak
2D/h/s constructive

I generated quite a lot of hands for the 1NT overcall, and it is break even constructively, but HUGE in terms of winning the partscore battle.

Within this structure, 2C+ is multi landy, the idea being to jack up the bidding to the two level on partscore battle hands while they are at an information disadvantage.

Can you clarify? What is your 1D overcall of 1C? You've listed it as takeout of clubs and 15-18 balanced. Which is it? And what is your 1N overcall? Thanks

 PhilKing, on 2012-December-23, 13:25, said:

What did you play your x as?

The auctions I loathed in OS were the 1N takeout over a short minor. Here we are jumping into a non-fit auction at the two level. I got burned on these sequences more than any others.

I wanted to keep it simple. Over 1♣, just play x as power to include your 15-18(+) hand, 1♦ as a lite takeout, 1N as Raptor and 2♦ as natural, but usually 6 pieces. This would keep 2♥ as ♥ + ♠.

 straube, on 2012-December-23, 13:39, said:

1D = 15-18 bal. 1NT = 6 diamonds or diamonds + major. Draft stage! But was just observing that flipping 1D and 1NT made sense in your structure. You keep your power double and are OK on the take-out doubles.

 Phil, on 2012-December-23, 13:42, said:

Double is basically any takeout double, any 13-14 bal, any off shape hand that we feel like, so a 4234 14 count would double. If next hand bids we play double for take-out. If next hand passes, 1level nat, 2 level as if partner opened 1NT with transfers showing 9+.

 Phil, on 2012-December-23, 13:42, said:

What did you do with a strong takeout hand? My understanding of the power double is that it's nice if it implies 2+ of opponent's suit so that partner may pass...but he can't do that if you can have say a 14 count with shortness in their suit.

On a separate note, I'd like to advocate for the idea of having a power double placing the partnership in a force through a certain level (perhaps 1N). Double then basically says that I have enough strength to conduct a fit-finding auction through that point. This way your strong balanced hand can look for a 4-4 major suit fit at the 1-level.

 PhilKing, on 2012-December-23, 13:49, said:

I would worry about safety doubling with 13-14 balanced. Say it goes 1C to me and I double with Axxx Ax Kxx Qxxx. Great if we find a fit, but no certainty of that and I'm not strong enough to want to play 1N. OTOH, you do have an advantage in that you are starting the conversation low so you may add your chances for finding a fit together with chances that 1N will be right. Does your double start a force through any certain point? In my view it should or advancer will have to jump to show values even when he doesn't have much of a preference for his suit. I mean, you don't want him jumping to 2H here with 4 hearts and a 9 count.

 straube, on 2012-December-23, 13:55, said:

We wing it at the one level and can stop in 1D. Pulling say, 1H to 1S can be on four and does not promise the earth, though we may be strong (a la Polish). 1M can be up to 9 with a four card suit. When we have 14 opposite say 7, it's much better for us if the second opponent bids (then double is take out and suits 7-10 5+ and responders suit is the cue), but my experience is that they usually do bid.

At the two level when 3rd seat passes, 2C is a 1 round force ostensibly 10+, 2D+ transfer 9+ 5+.

 straube, on 2012-December-23, 13:49, said:

Somewhere on Jeff Goldsmith's site is a summary of how you handle awkward hands in OS. My recollection is that power doubles needed to be stronger the shorter we are in RHO's suit. So a double could be made on most 15-16 hands with a doubleton but you needed incremental extras with a stiff or void, since partner will convert 1m x'd with four good ones.

 straube, on 2012-December-23, 13:17, said:

If (1♣) - 1♦ promises at least 3 diamonds, I would think that falls under the definition of natural.

I don't know about 1N showing diamonds. Someone that can access the GCC can tell quickly.

 Phil, on 2012-December-23, 15:16, said:

In UK you are allowed any defence if 1C is 2+. 1NT is legal regardless because promises an anchor suit. 1D illegal against 3+ club.

For GCC, the 1NT overcall has to be natural, 3-suited or show at least 5-4 in 2 suits with a known suit by my reading of the chart. The solution would be to take Phil's proposal, remove the 6+ diamond hands from 1NT and play 2♦ as an IJO. Now 1NT becomes Raptor with diamonds as the anchor suit:

(1♣)
X = power
1♦ = weak takeout
1M = natural
1NT = 5+ diamonds, 4M
2♣ = strong takeout

Another idea might be to play the 1♦ overcall as either natural (and sound) or a light takeout. Then 1NT (or 2♣) can be the stronger takeout without losing anything else.

(1♣)
X = power
1♦ = weak takeout; or natural and sound
1M = natural
1NT = strong takeout


As for the 2-suiters and WJOs, you can always play around with my structure if you keep the cue free:

(1m)
2m = wjo in a major; or spades + om, strong
jump om = wjo
2♥ = both majors, weak
2♠ = spades + om, weak
2NT = hearts + om, weak/strong (normal UNT)
3m = both majors, strong

Unfortunately the cue bid is not GCC-legal since it does not promise a known suit. I cannot see an easy way of getting around this without either giving up the benefits of getting the known 2-suiters in immediately or of losing a wjo. Probably simplest would be to lose the wjo in diamonds and play Michaels:

(1♣)
2♣ = both majors, weak/strong (normal Michaels)
2♦ = spades and diamonds, weak
2M = wjo
2NT = hearts + diamonds, weak/strong (normal UNT)
3♣ = spades + diamonds, strong


Put that together and you end up with:

(1♣)
X = power
1♦ = weak takeout; or natural and sound
1M = natural
1NT = strong takeout
2♣ = both majors, weak/strong (normal Michaels)
2♦ = spades and diamonds, weak
2M = wjo
2NT = hearts + diamonds, weak/strong (normal UNT)
3♣ = spades + diamonds, strong

Does this work?