BBO Discussion Forums: Non-Natural System for beginners - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Non-Natural System for beginners

#21 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,572
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2021-May-30, 15:40

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-May-30, 06:20, said:

Here in the Netherlands Dutch Doubleton is very popular, but I think the degree to which it is non natural and the degree to which it is suitable for beginners are inversely related. I do not think it matches the requirements of the original post.

I could talk about Dutch Doubleton for days without pausing for breath, but at its core there are three different systems called 'Dutch Doubleton'. One is basically SAYC except that 4=4=3=2 shape and points outside your 1NT/2NT opening range you open 1, instead of 1 (this way 1 always promises 4). In my opinion this is not noticeably better or worse than SAYC, and it would be a stretch to call this an unnatural system (although 1 needs to be alerted).

A step up is described in the previous link to Rosalind's website (although the 2NT weak minors is not standard, most people here play 20-21 or 20-22 NT). In this version of Dutch Doubleton you open 1 only with 5+ or exactly 4=4=4=1. This means that a whole host of hands with 4 diamonds and 2 clubs will be opened with 1. Normally people add a 'relay' 1 response to 1, showing either real diamonds (often in conjuction with Walsh principles, so it denies a major unless GF) or any 0-7 HCP hand without long clubs. Opener rebids their longest major with a weak balanced hand (can be only 3 and needs to be alerted) or 1NT with a hand too strong for a 1NT opening (usually 18-19). This caters to the increased frequency of opening 1 on only 2, so you can run to a major suit. The 1 opening and 1 response need to be alerted.



Nothing unusual in most of Europe about opening 4=4=3=2 as 1, which they will play as standard once they move to Italian 2/1 anyway.
I can live with the rest (after reverting to a normal 2NT) but as you say it's more a variant of the target system than a simple alternative.
0

#22 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,380
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hamilton, New Zealand

Posted 2021-May-31, 15:59

Dutch Doubleton is a 5542 system with Polish responses to the 1 opening.

What the Dutch BF has tried to standardize for ordinary club players (Dutch Doubleton is too hardcore for most club players) is called "Standaard Hoog". That is Dutch Acol with 5-card majors.
Can't have a baby if you do it contraclockwise! --- Jlall
0

#23 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,380
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hamilton, New Zealand

Posted 2021-May-31, 21:52

I have been teaching Looier (a weird relay system) and simplified Precision to beginners. Maybe it's fair to say that the learning curve is less steep than with standard methods, and it's nice to have fast and simple strength and captainship resolution. The fact that bids are either natural or artificial- no vague quasinatural bids - also appeals to some beginners.

But ultimately I think it doesn’t matter so much what system you teach. They all have their pros and cons in terms of ease of learning. So just choose something that is locally common and supported by good teaching material.
Can't have a baby if you do it contraclockwise! --- Jlall
0

#24 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 915
  • Joined: 2012-April-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-June-02, 01:02

View Postnullve, on 2021-May-30, 05:29, said:

The negative NT, what is it? :unsure:


The problem is that you will often not reach a sensible contract after a Polish (or old Precision) 2 opening.

I believe Dutch Doubleton is a better choice.


This isn't the first time when I assumed a Swedish bridge term meant the same thing in English :) I assume the English term is "non-forcing NT" or "semi-forcing NT". Responding 1NT to one of a suit is an artificial bid showing:

1. Less than four cards in suits which could be bid on the one level.
2. Usually not support for the opened suit (but in some even more artificial versions it may have support).
3. Could have any shape at all (could differ depending on your jump shifts), except from the above. Doesn't promise a balanced hand nor stoppers in unbid suits.
4. Not enough strength to respond with a suit at the two level, but too strong to pass.

Regarding Polish Club and Dutch Doubleton: I'm not sure I consider DD to be a non-natural system, but that depends on the definition. I agree that the Polish 2 is poor, but I think the bad reputation mostly comes from people not playing it. Sure I've had some bad results after opening 2, but also good results. Having 18-19 NT in a natural system vs a weak responder also leads to silly contracts, like playing 1 in a 3-2 fit.
1

#25 User is offline   DJNeill 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 435
  • Joined: 2003-September-07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hillsboro, OR USA
  • Interests:current events, long-distance cycling

Posted 2021-June-02, 07:51

Speaking of "advanced Dutch Doubleton", you can get a book on it here - https://bridgewithdan.com/books/
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users