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What should I bid ?

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-18, 04:10



Playing standard, 5 card majors.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#2 User is offline   cphastrup 

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Posted 2021-March-18, 04:37

2 - by getting the primary support of your chest immediately, the partnership is better placed in the rest of the auction, and you may hinder a light overcall from E. If you choose 1, you may forever have buried your fit if it goes 1 - (2) - pass - (3).
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#3 User is offline   morecharac 

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Posted 2021-March-18, 07:35

First consideration, how frustrated am I by the time this board comes up?

Playing with discipline,* North's hand isn't worth a rebid even with invitation.

Playing without discipline,* I might flail about with 1 hoping to catch a double fit. If partner raises to 2, that's where we belong. If opponents compete to 3m, I can name the fit then.

* Because some sessions bad bidding seems to be the only way to get decent results. Or I might be playing in a Gold Rush and know to expect horrible defense from most of my opponents (and I've somehow been talked into playing a GR game at all...).
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#4 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-March-18, 09:44

2H - this should be unanimous
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#5 User is offline   wuudturner 

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Posted 2021-March-18, 12:30

When you hand is worth only one bid, make it! That is just 2♡. Partner can make a better judgement then. If you belong in game, partner should make another effort. And if you happen to have a spade fit also, then your spades will be useful. But if you bid 1♠ here, and then raise hearts, partner will expect a better hand.
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#6 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-18, 14:42

View Postmorecharac, on 2021-March-18, 07:35, said:

First consideration, how frustrated am I by the time this board comes up?

Playing without discipline,* I might flail about with 1 hoping to catch a double fit. If partner raises to 2, that's where we belong. If opponents compete to 3m, I can name the fit then.

* Because some sessions bad bidding seems to be the only way to get decent results. Or I might be playing in a Gold Rush and know to expect horrible defense from most of my opponents (and I've somehow been talked into playing a GR game at all...).

I think I may have the perfect partner for your next Gold Rush Pairs.

I am trying to find a better way to explain why "Support with Support" is crucial, but noone has come up with anything I haven't tried yet.
Maybe later, when my skin is a little thicker, I will post the hand in question.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#7 User is offline   morecharac 

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Posted 2021-March-18, 15:52

View Postjillybean, on 2021-March-18, 14:42, said:

I think I may have the perfect partner for your next Gold Rush Pairs.

We tried it once when it was coming into vogue and had gutted the Open Pairs sessions at our regional Regional.

Never again. We chose to play open A/X Swisses instead, despite having fewer than 400 MP between us at the time.
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#8 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-March-19, 00:54

View Postcphastrup, on 2021-March-18, 04:37, said:

2 - by getting the primary support of your chest immediately, the partnership is better placed in the rest of the auction, and you may hinder a light overcall from E. If you choose 1, you may forever have buried your fit if it goes 1 - (2) - pass - (3).

Good illustration of why it is important to show the H support ASAP. You forbid p, unaware of the H fit, to compete to 3H, and clearly your strength doesnt allow you to do it either.

Another illustration is that when partner rebids 2m over your 1S, youll correct to 2H and that will only show a 2-cd preference. Without known fit, partner might just pass when hed have made a game try over a simple raise. Not that youd have accepted here (except in S), but a slightly stronger hand still below invite could have (turn the CJ into a minor Q, over 3m try).

The only way Id bid S is if I have a truly horrible hand, ashamed of bidding 2H, fearing this would encourage partner to get higher and be disappointed with dummy, going down too often. Something like

Qxxx
xxx
Qxx
Qxx

If opps buy the contract, Im not unhappy. If partner doesnt move over a 2H later call from me, Im even happier.

But the posted hand is way better than this so no reason to hide.
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#9 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-March-19, 09:38

A common treatment in my area is Constructive Major Raises, and they would bar 2 on this hand. With it, you bid 1; without spades, you bid (forcing) 1NT and then 2.

The advantage of this is when you do bid 2M, because partner is much better placed to determine game (or slam try) prospects opposite 8-10ish than 6-9, given the wide range of standard openings.

The disadvantage of course, is 1-p-1-2; p-3 as described.

Of course, you're in better shape after 1-p-1-2; X (3 spades)-3 than you are had you bid 2 and partner had to make the decision not knowing the double fit. Swings and roundabouts.

I play Constructive Raises with my partners that want to; I don't suggest it. But it is something that interacts with your call decisions on hands like this one.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
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#10 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-March-19, 14:41

View Postmycroft, on 2021-March-19, 09:38, said:

I play Constructive Raises with my partners that want to; I don't suggest it. But it is something that interacts with your call decisions on hands like this one.


It's one of those treatments I would beg my opponents - not my partners - to play.

Playing CR the auction 1M-1NT-2x-2M is horrible.
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#11 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-March-19, 15:17

Like many others I'd bid 2. That being said, you can sort of sense the problem already. Partner is likely to have spade shortage, maybe even extra heart length, and might preemptively re-raise to protect against 2. Nothing I can do about it, I suppose (although incidentally the Constructive Raises partnerships might avoid this one, when the opponents fail to overcall for two whole rounds). I suppose that Axxxx is a much better holding if partner protects than KJxxx, so I'll take that as a win.
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#12 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-March-19, 15:35

View PostTylerE, on 2021-March-19, 14:41, said:


Playing CR the auction 1M-1NT-2x-2M is horrible.


Why?

Anyway, the point is you must raise hearts, directly or via 1nt and forget about your spade suit.
Imagine the auction starting 1 1nt* 2 ;)
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#13 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-March-19, 16:31

View Postjillybean, on 2021-March-19, 15:35, said:

Why?

By (systematically) making a delayed raise on a weak hand you are exposing yourself to interference. I think in classical 2/1 systems with a forcing 1NT it was allowed(/standard) to respond 1NT with 3-card support for partner and a balanced minimum, and then giving preference to 2M on the next round (showing "often 2 trumps, or 3 with a balanced minimum"). The caveat is that you should only bid in this manner with hands that are happy to sell out to the opponents if they interfere at a level higher than 2M.
Personally I am not a fan of this, mainly because of my opening style. If your partnership allows for aggressive openings partner will have a weak shapely minimum a good fraction of the time. Informing partner of an 8-card fit is vital for them to evaluate their hand (typically, from 'hot garbage' into 'worth another bid' on these shapely minima). With undisciplined openings it's quite all right that you might want to sell out, but you might also be robbing partner of the opportunity to compete and that can cost quite a bit.
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#14 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-March-19, 18:26

View Postjillybean, on 2021-March-19, 15:35, said:

Why?


Because you don't know if responder, is, say, 5-7 with 3 card support, or 7-9 with 2 card support.
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#15 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-March-20, 09:21

Listen, I agree with you. That's why "I don't suggest [playing] it."

But on the other hand, for those who balance against fits or are otherwise LOTT fans, they're put in an awful situation in this auction. If the opponents have a fit, dummy has a weaker hand, so it's even more likely that balancing is right - and other tables have gone 1-2-p and their opponents know what's going on. But if responder has the "standard" hand, they're playing in the 5-2, and will welcome a balance. Opener doesn't know, and doesn't need to know; responder does know; and you don't.

And they are, in fact, quite a ways ahead of pairs that aren't playing this when they both raise initially.

Swings and roundabouts, again.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
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#16 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-March-20, 17:04

View PostTylerE, on 2021-March-19, 14:41, said:

It's one of those treatments I would beg my opponents - not my partners - to play.

Playing CR the auction 1M-1NT-2x-2M is horrible.

View Postjillybean, on 2021-March-19, 15:35, said:

Why?

View PostTylerE, on 2021-March-19, 18:26, said:

Because you don't know if responder, is, say, 5-7 total points with 3 card support, or 7-9 5-9 hcp with 2 card support.

FYP

And if you play Gazzilli (oops, wrong forum!),

1M-1N; 2-2M = 5-7 total points with 3c support OR 5-7 hcp with 2c support.
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